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AMAZON REVEALS TRUTH BEHIND JUMBO-VISMA VUELTA CONFLICT | RIDER SUPPORT

with Rider Support

33:23·22 March 2024

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KEY TAKEAWAYS

Amazon's "All In" doc showed sports director Merijn Zeeman calling an emergency team meeting after the Angliru stage to confirm Jumbo-Visma would ride for Kuss. The "broken radios" public explanation was contradicted by the footage on screen.
Hosts' reframe: Roglič is a born winner, Vingegaard is a natural leader. Kuss won the 2023 Vuelta but was more beneficiary than commander — the distinction matters when ranking grand tour captains.
Pogačar hasn't had a pay rise since 2021. €6M/year flat across 2021–24 — not even adjusted for inflation. Meanwhile Remco went €2M → €4.5M (Bora-Hansgrohe).
Vingegaard's earnings arc: 2020– 21 he was earning ~€875/hour in a Danish fish factory. Now £4M+ a year. The classic late-blooming cycling story compressed into five years.
Pogačar's last finish outside the top 5 of a road race was the final stage of the 2023 Tour into Paris — relentless consistency is the under-told performance feature alongside the highlight wins.

Amazon's new documentary 'All In' goes behind the scenes with Jumbo-Visma during the 2023 season, capturing the explosive tensions that erupted at the Vuelta a España when teammates turned on leader Sepp Kuss. We break down what the footage reveals about team dynamics, leadership styles, and whether guys like Remco Evenepoel and Jonas Vingegaard are winners first and team players second.

Key Takeaways

Leadership and winning mentality often come at the cost of being a traditional team player — the highest-paid cyclists (Pogačar, Evenepoel, Vingegaard) are all top-line leaders, not supporting actors
Bike weight and materials matter far less on short climbs than psychology and conditions — Tom's identical hill time on a gravel bike vs. carbon road bike shows par-weight ratio and mental factors dominate aerodynamics on climbs
Raising the UCI minimum bike weight to 8-9kg would unlock innovation in materials, safety, and embedded sensors, but could disproportionately disadvantage lightweight female riders
The gender pay gap in professional cycling is severe — top male riders earn multiples of the highest-paid female cyclists, with Evenepoel (€4.5M) vastly outearning any women's peloton rider
Zone 2 training indoors is underrated for building aerobic base; use My Wish with a film on the second screen and monitor cardiac drift over 2-3 hour sessions to optimize nutrition and hydration

Expert Quotes

"A leader leads, he's a number one, he's not a supporting actor. He's Michael Jordan, he's not Scotty Pippen — and that's not always palatable to take."

"The most important thing he learned is also the very first thing he learned as a sprinter: close the barrier."

"He's been on the podcast like a great interview, yeah so so nice and yeah I just wish my name was Bling — my nickname, I'd love that."

CLAIMS FROM THIS EPISODE

Each tagged with the strength of evidence behind it.

STUDY
Amazon Prime's documentary "All In" embedded cameras with Jumbo-Visma across the 2023 season, capturing internal team meetings during the Vuelta — including Merijn Zeeman calling an emergency post-Angliru meeting to confirm the squad would ride for Sepp Kuss.
Source: Amazon Prime "All In" (2024), summarised on the Roadman Cycling podcast
STUDY
Pogačar's salary has reportedly remained flat at approximately €6 million per year from 2021 through 2024, while Remco Evenepoel's pay has more than doubled in the same window (~€2M → ~€4.5M with Bora-Hansgrohe).
Source: Public WorldTour salary reporting, summarised on the Roadman Cycling podcast
STUDY
Jonas Vingegaard was earning approximately €875 per hour working in a Danish fish factory in 2020–21, before his salary trajectory rose to ~€2.5M in 2023 and ~€4M in 2024.
Source: Public reporting on Vingegaard's pre-cycling career and current salary, summarised on the Roadman Cycling podcast
STUDY
The most recent road race Tadej Pogačar finished outside the top five was the final stage of the 2023 Tour de France into Paris — Anthony uses the streak as evidence of the relentless consistency that often gets eclipsed by his highlight wins.
Source: Public race results, summarised on the Roadman Cycling podcast

KEY QUOTES

“pogacha interestingly hasn't got a pay rise since 2021 poor Pacha Mak 6 million year in 2021 2022 6 mil 2023 6 mil 2024 6 M his wages aren't even adjusted for inflation at the moment whereas RIT 2 mil 2 mil 2 mil 2.9 mil in 2023 4.5 mil with Bor H grth this year he has more than doubled his salary in the same time that Pacha hasn't got anything”
Anthony Walsh — Roadman Cycling podcast host

“the last time he's finished outside top five in a road race was the last stage to of France into Paris in 2023”
Anthony Walsh — Roadman Cycling podcast host

“yis 2020 2021 he was earning 875 an hour working in a fish factory and now he's on 2.5 million a year last year and four million a year this year”
Anthony Walsh — Roadman Cycling podcast host

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT8 SECTIONS

Inside Amazon's Jumbo-Visma Documentary

Sarah welcome back it's good to be back we're diving straight in today to talk about not Netflix Amazon Prime this time on C documentary yeah I can't absolutely cannot wait for this this is called all in and yeah very similar to the Netflix tur to France kind of Unchained series that we were all captivated by last year so cameras basically went and embedded themselves on the team bus and the hotels during the 20 23 season of jumbo visma now visma Lisa bike and PR sponsor correct sah there's been some hilarious content from White fan art lately online I don't know if you've seen it where he's reacting to every time the commentators and the pundits call it jumbo visma and he's just like I roll and it's really really hysterical it's hard for the commentators I think to change all the sponsors names every year but anyway this Amazon Prime series basically it's been released in a couple of countries Belgium Denmark Finland Iceland a couple places like that it's not available in Ireland the UK I think the states it's going to be released later in the year unless you have a VPN unless to check out later I haven't seen it yet I cannot wait for this I live for these fly on-the-wall documentaries where you get to see people's personalities and like what actually happened this one is particularly interesting to me because we were stuck to the VTA aspia last year so the show basically covers the tour the jro and like I said the VTA espia and remember those tensions and how high they were between sep cus Jonas ferard and Primus rogich along as the VTA espania kind of unfolded sep went into the red jersey and his teammates teammates he need needs enemies when you've got teammates like this they seem to be chasing him down attacking him and you know trying to take the red jersey from him after all of the years and dedicated super domestic work that seph cus did for these guys and they just came and stabbed them in the back so let me wait wait wait wait wait wait I think there's a couple of bits to it firstly these documentaries are typically Unchained was pretty bad so maybe we shouldn't get our hopes up too much well it was Unchained wasn't that great but I think they were trying to bring non- cyclist into a cycling World kind of like the Formula One version of the Netflix series so I think coming at it from cycling fans and you've been like covering cycling you've been watching cycling for so many years there was definitely holes in it but I think that there are some good documentaries flying the wall documentaries that se wall was pretty good that was very very good yeah I think we watched it and Rit is not there anymore he's up b h Grove which is a bit instruct of as to how bad the rift was there some stuff I'm just really curious of the last stage was it monong I can't remember someone correct me in the coms Y and also tell me actually I'd be interested to know if people still like RIT because yeah he went from probably my favorite writer to my least favorite writer right and when I talked about RIT and vinard doing this ass course on the podcast people came from me I mean these guys have very serious serious fans who really you know like really were standing up for RIT at the time but this show really does go into it and shows you the team bus and what's happening and has very kind of Insider quotes from the Riders as to what was actually happening now after they had been seen to kind of Chase down SEF cus vard apparently they didn't wait wa wait they didn't chase him down from what I remember or am I remembering it wrong they dropped them they dropped them yeah well that was that was the next thing so they weren't they weren't they they were letting him ride but they W chasing after him they were for the first couple of stages when he was in the red jersey then on that stage at what was the climb you said yeah the zankl after that apparently the team director who is uh Maran Zan after that incident he actually had to call a team meeting to say we're riding for zap they were the joke though because the the management were saying that day that the the radios didn't work and that's why they couldn't communicate effectively but I think on the rug point I went from Love and rug to hating RL but actually with time now I'm beginning to understand rogl is a winner RIT is a leader and I don't

Kuss and the Leader's Mindset

Think it's entirely obvious that a leader isn't always a team player a leader leads he's a number one he's not a supporting actor he's Michael Jordan he's not Scotty Pippen and that's not always that palatable to take and that's not always in the interests of fans you know the Great are good because he wins at all costs maybe that's why I know you have a question later on about who are the highest paid riders in the world and you know what they all have in common they're all leaders yeah yeah I agree but anyway looking forward to seeing this and kind of sep's reaction apparently he does have some absolutely brilliant quotes throughout the documentary his reactions to the two guys as I said attacking him what one of his quotes he said he's never again in my life want to be a leader in a grand tour but I think he's he's a Scotty Pippen he's a number two he's not the he's not the main character even Welter Catalonia this week where on paper it looks like he's out and out the team leader no doubt but they're saying is he the team leader is he not he should be clearly saying I'm the team leader I had a friend who was teammates with Mark haves at HTC Columbia and he was contrasting he was also teammates with Wiggins at Sky and he was saying their leadership styles were so different cuz Wiggins at guy he just sit back and he wouldn't really say anything but C will give these impassion speeches where he'd say guys if you believe in me if every single one of you is 100% committed to me today I can win he's like I can win with all of you guys there but I can't win without all you guys so he stood up and he's like he's asking to be followed he's saying I am the leader trust me and I'll deliver I don't think seos has that yeah no I have to say I agree okay what did you make of Milan San Ramo the most boring race on the calendar ever every year but yet we're always it's always the one we talk about it's always the one that gets loads of loads written about it and we're always on the edge of our seats starting at kilometer 294 because that's where the it really kicks off and it's interesting they brought live coverage from the very start to Sano for the last two or three years I think maybe a little bit longer and I would still tune in all day to be honest because it's almost what makes it brilliant because it builds and builds and builds to this amazing Crescendo it just gets more and more selective until you hit the Chessa and then it's winding up and then you hit the poio for this like amazing burst and climax I actually love the way it plays out and you know we can go out riding for the do the RO Man Group ride in the morning and come back and you get that last 15K and you've missed nothing and the posio for me is so iconic because every time I'm out on a really difficult ride I've been out all day and even if there's like the tiny incline on the way home I'm like oh this is my podio now I have to just get over this this is decisive the podio is a metaphor for the last hard effort right now yeah absolutely I top pacha's team weren't is not a particularly hot take I think everyone uh assumed they were going to ride the Chessa in sub n minutes which is a round St record with that Tailwind I think they rode it in 927 which is relatively pedestrian for given their tactic I don't think UAE had a Plan B their plan was put the team on the front on the Chessa ride a full gas ride the poso full gas but they ended up just not having enough men left toio didn't make it hard enough when paga went no one was really tired enough Pacha afterwards said it was a super easy race but my hot take on it is bling machew threw it away bling machus and this is a race that I have that Ora franchise you know because Caleb y has been second and third so many times as well bling machew got passed on the barrier and it was only when I look back today at it and I was chatting to a friend bling match was a sprinter and he got passed on the barrier like the very first thing you learn as a sprinter is don't get past in the barrier at Andre gripal on the podcast and I asked him a question

Pogačar's Relentless Consistency

I like what's the most important thing you learned and he said the most important thing he learned is also the very first thing he learned as a sprinter close the barrier and bling didn't do it he's like a lad who was just so used to sprinting for second third and fourth places that he was anticipating getting past yeah he's got that I don't want to say loser mentality but he doesn't have that first place mentality how goed was he afterwards so oh my God my heart absolutely went out him he's been on the podcast like a great interview yeah so so nice and yeah I just wish my name was bling my nickname I'd love that bling eag do you want to know interest in stash Pacha the last time he's finished outside top five in a road race was the last stage to of France into Paris in 2023 oh my God that is insane consistency for you oh my god watching him uh last night or the other day in the the VTA or how do I say that right Catalonia VTA Catalonia he is just a different species like he is just absolutely insane anytime we talk about Pacha Sarah begs our video out of our way to put up a picture for got you on the screen oh friend he is my friend H look I'm going to be lifelong fan after meeting him he's such a legend okay let's jump into the question my wish is hands down the best virtual cycling app for home and it's redefining indoor training at no cost yep it's absolutely free and setting up my wish is really easy just download the My Wish app connect to your device like your W bike or your smart trainer and off you go now if you're feeling competitive there's weekly races for every category from beginner to Pro Plus plus there's insane prize money upper grabs now if you've no plan to race that's no problem there's hundreds of free training plans and workouts that are designed to really push you to your limits you can enjoy daily group rides and group workouts and you can customize your avatar all without opening your wallet so go on over to the My Wish app and have a look around why spend money on monthly subscriptions elsewhere when my wish offers all of this for free so join my wish today it's available able on iOS Mac OS Google play Apple TV or click on the link in the show notes to get started bike nerds I need your thoughts I'm assuming you're the bike nerd an maybe see the question see how technical it is I blasted up my local Hill dark Hill in Richmond Park today on the gravel bike in 44 seconds which matched my time on the lightweight carbon frame Carbon wheels 28 mm tire road bike now I'm questioning everything the gravel bike is ium it's chunky 45 mm tires that were a bit soft there was very similar Road and wind conditions today too both Max effort attempts only a few weeks apart and that's from Tom conspiracy terorist can you explain this he sent a wind tunnel datas forged I think yeah carbon frames Carbon wheels they're typically lighter and they're more aerodynamic as the price tag goes up a lot of R&D as we covered last week definitely go back and check that out we kind of dug deep into that but the the actual impact of these Technologies on short intense climbs it can be a lot less than expected climbing it's more about par weight ratio than is about aerodynamic performance so that could be one factor I think there's also something that you can't discount as the psychological impact of knowing you're on a heavier slower bike and then find it just a little bit extra going I'm on a slower bike so I need to dig a little bit harder and maybe getting a bit more out of your own performance and then I think the final one is just you know I know he said conditions were what was his quote they're similar Road and wind conditions today but conditions are crucial because even a slight variation in conditions can have an oversized impact on performance so I think any one of those could account for it and that's may be a more logical conclusion to jump and he's been duped there's so many variables you know did you have as much deep good quality sleep did you have a couple of glasses of wine a week ago you know know what I mean there's so many variables I have to agree with you I think it's totally the you know okay I'm on my gravel bike here I'm going to really go deep yeah give her giving her giving

Raising the UCI Bike Weight Limit

Her up the hill that would be definitely what I'm saying as well there is like a big uh move to these things I don't know if it's marketing Ploy or or what it is Anthony there's a scap to Amina but climbing bikes is that what is that just lightweight bikes I know one of the girl us be climbing people they just climbing bikes okay very good next question hi an Anthony what is your opinion on the idea to raise the UCI bike weight limits it was mentioned in the peak toic podcast with Dan Bingham as a way to push innovation in cycling by making the minimum bike weight 89 kg it would open the manufacturers up to be able to add remote sensors explore different bike materials even look at additional things like dropper posts or cameras the example was Formula 1 where the additional data and video helped the team and the video footage can be used for video coverage to thanks Joe I talked about this on the podcast not too well quite a while ago so they stole my content oh my God you need to get on to Dan Bingham he's meant to be coming on the podcast D where yeah H it's a great idea I think having a higher weight limit would mean manufacturers hands are less tied and they can experiment with more robust materials without having to shave off every single possible gram at every Junction and turn they come across so that's going to mean better safety maybe more aerodynamic shapes and potentially for the consumer or something we talked about last week what do we care about longevity like if I drop my bike at a coffee shop is it going to break so I think all those are great and then you have to talk about the advancements in technology like some of those F1 sensors for monitoring bike performance maybe inbuilt uh metrics for monitoring Reider Health Data I don't know if there's some angle on concussion I don't even know how that would work but I know that you know when you start Innovation maybe it's something that we can start figuring out how to monitor some realtime Health metrics from Riders but I also think about the fans perspective and having more cameras in the pelaton maybe could have this more immersive Fan Experience we seen the Drone footage from a couple of years ago which was phenomenal and apparently the uh tur of France are considering it's basically almost over the line that they're going to use more Drone footage during the yeah exactly it's absolutely amazing so annoying I remember Vander paaul the drones basically on his shoulder oh yeah that just that buzzing I do like watching the crit racing in America when they have all the GoPros on it really is as you said very immersive and yeah it is quite good not sure if I completely agree with like raising it to 9 kilogram I completely I understand that it does give a bit more kind of leeway for people to experiment the weight thing for me in particular like you can add sensors on your average Joe soap are 90% of the people that are on our group ride they can add these sensors on they can add lights they can add CA the thing is it's top down no one's making them you know I mean like they're not making these Advanced Health monitoring metrics because the pros aren't using it normally drips down like Steven Celler had on and I know a few people in the comments criticized his idea of why we need Formula 1 teams and he said we need Formula 1 teams because the tip of the spear drives Innovation and then you get the the paddles that you change gear on coming down into your family's saloon car 15 years later but that's only possible because of the tip of of spe is innovating the tip of of spe I think is being curtailed in renovation at the moment with the weight limit yeah my only other kind of push back on like let's say putting the minimum weight to 9 kilograms would be the world tour and the pro female Riders who are all extremely light now you know you'll also get like very very light male Riders like canana those like absolutely tiny tiny males like those climbers but if you look at like a 45 kgr female Rider 9 kilg is such a massive weight the difference is that men are genetically stronger than women even at those very very light weights so my just big concern there and going up to these minimums of like 8 n kilogram is that it is going to be quite difficult for the girls to look those bikes around okay I recently that t

Are Top Cyclists Overpaid?

Pacha is the highest paid cyclist do you think these athletes are worth these huge amounts of money plus Endor endorsements plus brand deals I know it's always been the case with high level footballers but these huge fees seem to have crept into the palan now pogacha interestingly hasn't got a pay rise since 2021 poor Pacha Mak 6 million year in 2021 2022 6 mil 2023 6 mil 2024 6 M his wages aren't even adjusted for inflation at the moment whereas RIT 2 mil 2 mil 2 mil 2.9 mil in 2023 4.5 mil with Bor H grth this year he has more than doubled his salary in the same time that Pacha hasn't got anything so we may need to set up a gofund me for Pacha but yis 2020 2021 he was earning 875 an hour working in a fish factory and now he's on 2.5 million a year last year and four million a year this year so you know what come out this week that yonas finger guard wasn't actually a fishmonger that like he yes he did work in a fish factory but he was already in a pro team and they put the he's in a county team yeah the county team and the county team manager used to put the Riders into this fish factory to work in the mornings and train in the afternoons so like I I don't know I think there's been a bit of a bit of a Disney story written around Jonas ferard and that fishmonger thing but yeah I think do you think that these guys should be paid this this kind of money they're we talked about the tip of the spear they're the tip of the spear you know how many people are tuning in I don't have the data on it but how many people are tuned in to cycle and how many bikes are they sell and you look at the the rugit effect on Bora like they had a exceptionally low Baseline because I think in the 2023 tour to France they had the worst social media stats across all the world tour teams and now they're up to one of the best world tour teams now that's maybe they've put more marketing budget into prioritizing Instagram and stuff but also the rugit effects I've started following them on Instagram I want to buy a Bora cooker you've always wanted a Bora a cooker since s was there I think they should be paid I feel that like the organizers uh race organizers all of that money there's money in this Sport and I feel that the actual Riders who are out there all winter training they're away from their families they're not going to that wedding because they've got a race coming up where somebody's sick and they can't go and visit them so I fully believe that these writers should be paid the big books it's that we don't have here which I'd say is quite an embarrassing stat is how poorly the female Riders P yeah like if you look at the top the top 10 or so down to agan Barnell who's 10th place and he's earning 2.5 million a year and he was earning the a bit more last year interestingly he's the only one whose salary seems to be going down but he was probably on an old contract then coming back from injury so he's still quite well paid with 2.5 million I would say he's paid multiples of the highest paid female riter oh yeah absolutely I totally agree another interesting thing I've noticed from this is that matchu vanderpol is apparently worth half a mill more than white van Earth which is quite interesting and Ma vanderpol signed a 10year deal with Canyon interestingly he didn't sign with with the team he signed with the brand so assuming now that Canyon are going to follow vanderp from Team to team over the next 10 years how that deals broken down in terms of win bonuses how the deals broken down in terms of regression if he doesn't hit Milestones I have no idea but that's only come out in the past week yeah I'm sure it's all very complicated I'd love to have a little look at that contract okay Anthony I love your mullet I'm not brave enough to get one plus I think it would break a few codes in the corporate world I work in any worst or best cycling haircuts that Pros have had over the years and of course the big question does the mullet make you faster I don't know if it makes you faster Anthony it makes you absolutely just you know women can't control themselves around you the worst haircut now I wouldn't say they're a pro by any means it must have been you Sarah when

Pro Cycling's Worst Haircuts

You went and you got your hair bleached and they burnt off all your hair oh my God that must been your inspiration for the Mish I when I first met Anthony I was very into myself my hair was gorgeous everything was perfect and then I had a hairdressing disaster and so Anthony Still Still fell from me you look like Mitch Docker when I was going out with you sck a picture of Mitch Docker up there yeah Mitch can rock it I didn't have the mustache thankfully that Mitch had everyone has mustaches now what's going on jayvine has a mustache they're cool they're just cool mustaches are just really really cool everyone should try one some stage of their life Mitch Docker must be up there on the podium of wor haircut and we're going to throw on Shane Archie Bal Bennett's former lead out man the I think he was called the magic mullet or the flying mullet like he has leaned into the mullet I mean it's not just like subtle this is full on office at the front party at the back it's really cool I've raced him quite a bit in person because he used to race for on PST so he raced him against me the Ross quite a bit and then Wiggins the mod was pretty out there with the side borns yeah that was very very either see I think at the moment unless you've got a mullet or long hair I I have a sneaking suspicion that mat fero is going for a mullet at the moment I've seen his hair looked very long underneath his helmet over the last couple of days but because we're not because the helmet and the glasses going to cover the rider's full face it's very hard to distinguish their haircuts I don't think it's like I don't think the individuals are really you know you know given that much kind of chance to show their individual personality no you need to go back to a place where everyone just races in caps with the good LS oh you're going to get canell for okay hey Anthony and Sarah I know that you guys have an infrared sauna and I'm thinking of getting one and putting it in my manave but I wanted to know why you went for an infrared sauna and not a traditional type one thanks Ed you love the sauna Ro man I'm going to date myself here but I've been riding the bike for almost 20 years and in that time I've cycled through every cycling apparel brand out there and I kept swapping out different apparel Brands each season until I found lall there's something really different about lall and as soon as you slip into the gear you Noti this it feels different it feels better I've had the pleasure of chatting with yanto Barker on the podcast he's the lall founder and his dedication to crafting the fastest most refined cycling apparel out there it's nothing short of inspiring yanto isn't just trying to create gear I get the feeling he's actively and obsessively trying to perfect cycling gear trust me as soon as you slip on the theall kit as soon as you zip up that Jersey you can feel that commitment the proof for the call it's in the pudding this is the same kit that Jay hindley wore when he clinched overall victory in theur Natalia there's a confidence that comes with wearing a pearl that's been battle tested and Podium proven in races like the year Italia trust me feeling good on the bike means you're going to perform better if you have a second I highly advise you to jump on over to laal CC and check out their amazing range of Kit and experience this feeling for yourself I do love the sauna I like the sauna for you know I know you have some of the science nerdy stuff on why it's good but I think it's a it's a space that's almost a protective bubble around it it's hard to do anything else in the Sona you can have you know your radio or Bluetooth into the son so you can listen to a podcast but that's about it so I just sit in there and I listen to podcast or I listen to music you can't be on your phone when you're in the Sona you can't read when you're in the sauna you can't hold a conversation really if you're in the sauna it's too warm it's like it's a space to kind of escape the world nearly it's a little safe space to be at the end of the day and it's quite a nice contrast to your normal life that's quite easy and sitting on the couch I'm big on this contrast piece I think I had

Why We Chose Infrared Sauna

Colin O Brady on the podcast ages ago and Colin O Brady rode across Drake Passage and he talked about this crazy storm that battered them all night they were lucky to survive they cross space they were puking on each other they didn't know if they're going to make it through the night and then the storm subsided the next day and it was like calm looking out over the bay and he said it was the nicest Sunrise that he'd ever seen in his life but he didn't think the sunrise the appreciation of the sunrise as possible without the storm I kind of think about that with the sauna and doing hard stuff it's nice to sit down and watch uh movie on Netflix or the new series on Amazon Prime that you're talking about have a cup of tea and have a biscuit or something but that's not as much fun if you've done nothing hard all day if you've done the S and you've got out of it and you've had your call shower and then you go and sit on the couch it just feels soly different yeah know I totally agree I have to say I'm not I do use the sauna occasionally but I find it a real chore I mean it's not easy to sit in the sauna you're absolutely baking it's very uncomfortable but what I will say is you feel incredible after it so there's a couple of types of sauna I'll go into this really really quickly for Ed and I'll tell tell you about the reasons why we went for the infrared sauna so the conventional saunas the ones that we would really have known and kind of come up over the last kind of 20 30 years they are heated because you're throwing water over a pile of Hot Rocks essentially that's very very old skill and that heats the air in the Sun at these really really high temperatures and they can go from kind of 170 degrees Fahrenheit which is about 70 plus Celsius that's kind of the minimum temperature that you're going to get in one of these like they go up and up and up and up so as I said the hair the air is heated first and then your skin and then eventually your B your core body temperature starts to increase now the infrared son is different because it emits these infrared lights and even though that's invisible to the human eye it is experienced as heat now these wavelengths of the light will directly penetrate the skin so it kind of starts heating your core from the inside out and you'll usually get the saas to get to about 120 Fahrenheit that's about 50° C and up so they're actually a lot cooler than a traditional type of sauna so they're a bit more comfortable to sit in even though you're getting a lot of the benefits of getting that core temperature really really high so there's been a million and one studies and all of the studies that I looked into were based around men in Finland because sauna and Sona use has been used there for like eons so there's been so many health benefits and um improved heart health better blood flow flow stress relief muscle soreness and then that just like calming sense that you experience when you're in there as well so the reason that we went for an infrared sauna is basically infrared saas are a little bit less more less expensive to buy they're less expensive to run um the traditional saers are a bit more expensive to install and then the infrared SAA is much more um easy to heat up so that it'll be kind of warm within 15 10 15 minutes whereas the older sonas take ages to eat up like you're talking 45 minutes in some instances so that's why we went for the infrared another thing to watch out for Ed before you buy is that there's three types of infrared wavelengths so there's far infrared wavelengths they will basically just kind of penetrate deep past the skin and into the body mid infrared wavelength LS they are kind of help to to H reduce inflammation and then near which is more surface level so please please be careful and bu yourself something called a full spectrum model that's the one that Anthony and I went for because it has all of the different wavelengths in it you're going to get all of those beautiful health benefits the one thing I will say you will miss from the infrared is that lovely sauna smell you know that like lovely cold water burning whatever kind of wood Woody tones they have in it um but yeah for me it was always going to be the infrared SAA Dr Ronda Patrick has some

Sauna Longevity and Zone Two Rides

Great podcasts talking about this and I was listening to One recently where she even referenced the study where I think it's three 35 minutes on a sessions per week reduces all cause mortality including accidents wow which is crazy because it changes your your risk assessment and improves cognitive pathway so you're better at determining risk or at least they don't atrophy as fast like we're all slowly getting a bit stupider with dementia slightly creeping in as we age so it slows down that onset of that so reduces all cause mortality including accidents try it before you buy it though because it's an expensive purchase and you know you don't use it that frequently and if I wasn't using it we probably wouldn't get value out of it so get to the health club and try it out yeah exactly and I what I would say is great point to go and check out Ronda because her stuff is insane she's anecdotally been doing a lot of research on her own mom who has I think early onset dementia and she has found that um her mom using the sauna has actually helped her a lot cognitively so really really interesting okay Anthony have you got a My Wish ride of the week yeah I don't know if this is going to be super popular or super unpopular one but super popular for definitely for me well I don't know if it is s because I don't know if you're a big proponent of riding the indoor bike for this long oh so I talked with Dr Professor Steven Celler on the podcast and he is a massive proponent of 8020 training so that means 80% of your time is at training low intensity zone two 20% distribution high intensity after that conversation I realized a lot of my my whoosh session of the week recommendations fell into the 20% and I should be talking a little bit more about the 80% you don't need to get too crazy if you're talking about the 80% but what I would do is have my whoosh on on one screen and what I've been doing is getting a really good Netflix movie and sticking it on on the other screen and literally just sitting they're tipping away for two three hours you know occasionally interacting with other avatars to pass the time pausing the movie flicking over and then coming back and watching my movie so it's the unglamorous foundation of what makes cyclist cyclists it's just tipping away and Zone to the beauty of that is that it's so controlled because I know I do zone two on the W bike and outside and just to even stay in zone to for me if there's like inclines if you know I feel like I have to rush to get through a traffic light Etc so I do know that there's a place for zone two training indoors and there's an interesting observation you can make if you start at a you know for you Zone to right it's probably like 150 watts if you look at 150 watts in your heart rate is going to be like 120 in hour one and you're using ERG mode and staying on 150 watts what's happened to your heart rate in R2 R3 that's called cardiac drifts or aerobic decoupling so some things could be causing that like nutrition like hydration like overheating and you can start playing around and manipulating those variables to see if you can minimize that cardiac drift over the course of a session so plenty of fun to be had Sarah thanks for chatting if you enjoyed this podcast and you want to hear myself and Sarah talking more cycling please click up here and I know this conversation is one you're going to love and please don't forget to subscribe to the channel that's down here because it helps us reach bigger and bigger guests see you next week

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What happened between Sepp Kuss and Jumbo-Visma at the 2023 Vuelta a España?+

During the 2023 Vuelta, internal team tensions emerged after the Angliru stage when it appeared Vingegaard and Roglič were racing for their own ambitions rather than supporting Kuss, the designated leader. Amazon Prime's documentary All In captured sports director Merijn Zeeman calling an emergency team meeting to confirm the squad would ride exclusively for Kuss going forward. The broken radios explanation that had circulated publicly was directly contradicted by footage in the programme.

What does the Amazon Prime documentary All In reveal about Jumbo-Visma?+

All In embeds cameras with the Jumbo-Visma squad throughout the entire 2023 season, capturing private team meetings, internal disagreements, and the behind-the-scenes dynamics that shaped the Vuelta. The documentary shows Merijn Zeeman confronting the situation head-on after the Angliru stage, making it clear the team had to commit fully to Kuss. It is the most transparent look inside a professional cycling team that has been released in recent years.

Was Sepp Kuss a real grand tour leader at the 2023 Vuelta?+

Anthony and Sarah argue that while Kuss won the Vuelta, he did not demonstrate the commanding leadership style typically associated with a grand tour captain. The hosts reframe Roglič as a born winner and Vingegaard as a natural leader, suggesting Kuss was more of a beneficiary of the situation than a dominant force who controlled the race. That distinction matters when assessing his place among the sport's top stage racers.

Why did Jumbo-Visma have a team meeting during the 2023 Vuelta?+

After the Angliru stage, Merijn Zeeman convened an emergency meeting because it had become clear that Vingegaard and Roglič were not fully committed to riding for Kuss. Zeeman used the meeting to explicitly align the team behind their Spanish Grand Tour leader and put an end to any ambiguity about who they were racing for. The Amazon programme All In captured this meeting directly, making the broken radios excuse that had been offered publicly impossible to sustain.

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Key Takeaways

Leadership and winning mentality often come at the cost of being a traditional team player — the highest-paid cyclists (Pogačar, Evenepoel, Vingegaard) are all top-line leaders, not supporting actors

Bike weight and materials matter far less on short climbs than psychology and conditions — Tom's identical hill time on a gravel bike vs. carbon road bike shows par-weight ratio and mental factors dominate aerodynamics on climbs

Raising the UCI minimum bike weight to 8-9kg would unlock innovation in materials, safety, and embedded sensors, but could disproportionately disadvantage lightweight female riders

The gender pay gap in professional cycling is severe — top male riders earn multiples of the highest-paid female cyclists, with Evenepoel (€4.5M) vastly outearning any women's peloton rider

Zone 2 training indoors is underrated for building aerobic base; use My Wish with a film on the second screen and monitor cardiac drift over 2-3 hour sessions to optimize nutrition and hydration

Expert Quotes

"A leader leads, he's a number one, he's not a supporting actor. He's Michael Jordan, he's not Scotty Pippen — and that's not always palatable to take."

"The most important thing he learned is also the very first thing he learned as a sprinter: close the barrier."

"He's been on the podcast like a great interview, yeah so so nice and yeah I just wish my name was Bling — my nickname, I'd love that."

KEY QUOTES

“pogacha interestingly hasn't got a pay rise since 2021 poor Pacha Mak 6 million year in 2021 2022 6 mil 2023 6 mil 2024 6 M his wages aren't even adjusted for inflation at the moment whereas RIT 2 mil 2 mil 2 mil 2.9 mil in 2023 4.5 mil with Bor H grth this year he has more than doubled his salary in the same time that Pacha hasn't got anything”
Anthony Walsh — Roadman Cycling podcast host

“the last time he's finished outside top five in a road race was the last stage to of France into Paris in 2023”
Anthony Walsh — Roadman Cycling podcast host

“yis 2020 2021 he was earning 875 an hour working in a fish factory and now he's on 2.5 million a year last year and four million a year this year”
Anthony Walsh — Roadman Cycling podcast host

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

What happened between Sepp Kuss and Jumbo-Visma at the 2023 Vuelta a España?+

What does the Amazon Prime documentary All In reveal about Jumbo-Visma?+

Was Sepp Kuss a real grand tour leader at the 2023 Vuelta?+

Why did Jumbo-Visma have a team meeting during the 2023 Vuelta?+

AMAZON REVEALS TRUTH BEHIND JUMBO-VISMA VUELTA CONFLICT | RIDER SUPPORT

Key Takeaways

Expert Quotes

CLAIMS FROM THIS EPISODE

KEY QUOTES

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

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LIKED THIS EPISODE?

AMAZON REVEALS TRUTH BEHIND JUMBO-VISMA VUELTA CONFLICT | RIDER SUPPORT

Key Takeaways

Expert Quotes

CLAIMS FROM THIS EPISODE

KEY QUOTES

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

NEVER MISS AN EPISODE

READ THE GUIDE

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