1.Don't think I really hid it much harder than I normally would but…

I don't think I really hid it much harder than I normally would but maybe this is my only afterwards sort of recollection of why or how I maybe crash. Maybe I went in just a bit too, too overzealous, you know, just like I'm gonna get there. And it was wet, it was just wet between the cobbles and I think I just lost the front wheel. And the hands never got off so I just went straight down face first in the hottest sector of the world. The big question is this, how do we use cycling as a tool to improve our health, our happiness, and our long-chevages? That is the question on this podcast will give you the answers. My name is Anthony Walsh and welcome to the Roadman Podcast. Welcome back to the Roadman Podcast, you beautiful roadman. It's Wednesday, well, it may not be Wednesday, it depends on what they listen to this really, but it shows out every Wednesday. This week, like every week, I will not disappoint another world tour guest, another amazing insight into how to use our beautiful sports cycling for health, happiness and longevity. This week, I'm chatting to EF Education, Hardman, all around funny guy, Mitch Docker. Some of you might know Mitch from having to kill a smaller than the peloton, but let me assure you, Mitch is a lot more than a cool haircut. Mitch is a guy who is an expert on nutrition and we get into the nuances on that. Mitch is a seasoned professional rider because it really is, there really is a big difference between being a world tour rider and being somebody who's built a career in the world, or season after season, he's proved he can reinvent himself to the changing demands of a professional peloton. And I suppose a new way to look at the changing demands of a professional peloton, it's the increase in commercialization of that. And Mitch has again reinvented himself finger on the pulse of how his sport has changed and seeing that you need to differentiate yourself as a rider on a value proposition. And he's launched a very successful podcast, one of the few cycling podcasts up there with Tyler Hamilton's podcast in my view. A great podcast called Life in the Peloton, well worth checking out. I'm going to jump into this fascinating conversation with Mitch where we get into some really specific details and strategies you can use around your nutrition, but also coming back from crashes because Mitch was the victim of one of the most horrific crashes I've ever watched live on TV when he smashed himself pretty bad in in Pari-Rubei in a number of years back. Ozzie's still have a great weight. We had Matt White a couple of weeks ago. We're continuing in that vein with Mitch. Great chat, pleasure to have him. Before we jump into Mitch, I wanted to remind you of two things. How I'm able to bring you this podcast week after week. It's because of your generosity at Patreon. If you're not currently a Patreon subscriber, you can thank your fellow Patreon subscribers to date for carrying your ass over on patreon.com forward slash Anthony underscore watch. Your fellow listeners are donating and are making it possible for me to reach out to these amazing guests week after week. So if you can afford it and you can buy me a coffee, buy me a beer once a month, please head on over to patreon. I'm going to put a link in the description and help me fund this podcast and keep it as a sustainable project going forward. I think It's a valuable resource. I think it's a unique insight into these world source like lists that I haven't heard anywhere else. I hope you're a value on it as well. And if you are, please think about support in the podcast. And you know what? It's tough times for people at the moment with COVID uncertainty around the economy, employment. If you can't afford it and you genuinely can't afford it, you know what? There's no problem. I don't want money to be a hurdle. And I don't want you to not be able to listen to the podcast because you can't afford it. I won't be gaining the podcast. It is free, but if you do have the cash, like I say, please do support the podcast. The second way you can support the podcast is head on over and boy yourself a roadman t-shirt by yourself a roadman hoodie. Get yourself an arm warmers. Get yourself a cop. I'm going to leave the link to our roadman merch store in the description down below. It's a lovely way to support the podcast as well, but also to show your appreciation of public and say, you know what, I am a roadman. I am joining the legion of greats of the roadman. Legion of greats might be a bit strong. Right, we've pushed this off far enough. Let's jump on in and chat to Mitch Docker. Mitch Docker, welcome to the Rowman Podcast. Geez mate, thanks for having me on board. I see you're sitting on a balcony in your own out of Sippin' Beer. I am, I'm sippin' in one of my favorite beers or vowel, Belgian beer, one of the seven beautiful traperes. Very nice, I'm actually gonna start the conversation right around there because I was doing a little bit research for the podcast and I believe you went to uni for nutrition. I did, yeah. That was one of the lucky things that I was able to do before turning pro and at the time look I wasn't too sure if it was the right thing but I definitely looked back on that time very fondly because I really do feel that that was an important time for me to develop as a human being in terms of that important age sort of 19, 20, 21. You're sort of just discovering what you're allowed to do without parent parental guidance. You know, you can like, I can actually just go to the pub and no one cares, you know? And so that's what I think about that time. And yes, at the end of it, I got a degree in nutrition. But it isn't a cool because I know, like we've clients coming through the coaching company and I get like a chance that our parents at 17 and stuff and they're like, oh, you know, young Johnny wants to be a pro, should I pull them out of school? And you're like, fuck no, don't pull them out of school. And like I didn't know you'd been to you and you but for me, that's just like a cool example of you don't have to sacrifice academia for the pursuit of sports. You can do both. That's right. And I think apart from that, whether you're trying to achieve both, I think the whole point of it is at the end of it, you've got a choice what you want to do.

2.You're not just left with that one option

And you're not just left with that one option. You drop out of school and suddenly you go down the road of cycling and you realize living over in Italy or somewhere in France in a small amateur team and after three, four years, you're like, you know what, this is actually shit, I hate this. And all of a sudden you're like, now what? I've actually got to just keep pushing at this. And look, I'm not going to say it's easy doing both, but it's doable. If you really want it, you can make it happen. And at the end of all that, if you're going, I don't like cycling. You can just move on to what you were studying or vice versa. You go, that was great. Like I just said to me, I learnt so much out of the degree, not necessarily the degree itself, but life experience. And I was able to go on and cycle. You know what, when I was a race and furniture team over in France, I'd finished law school. So I'd finished my post grad, but my real mate was another guy from Dublin and he dropped out of school to do it. And like I could just see the difference in pressure like that. Like he felt it. Like if I don't get results and don't get a contract like I have fucked. That's the thing though but for some people that actually works and a guy, a really good example for me is a guy like Simon Clark. He finishes U12 and he decided to go straight across to Europe and he said that pressure helped him. I'm here to make it and I'm going to make it because I've made that choice but it's all individual. Some people don't thrive off that kind of negative pressure. And he's a guy, one example that it really works for him. He's like, I'm not going to say he had nothing else going on, but he's like, look, I chose this and I'm going to make it happen. And he's a great example of he made it happen. So when you're looking now asked a nutrition advice from your team, nutritionist, are you looking at it with a more skeptical head on than the rest of the luts. The thing with nutrition is it moves so fast. And so what I learned back at university, and I graduated in 2008, so much has changed in STEM. So the only thing that I can sort of, if I want to actually go back and be a nutritionist and give people guidance, I think yes, I've got a lot of experience because I've tried a lot of things out of myself, but ultimately I'd have to go back and probably take the whole course again. The thing that I'm able to do now is I can look at it with different eyes and I can understand things a little bit deeper than just the normal gomad. But that's sort of about it. I can sort of, even when I'm doing some research myself, I've got a little bit more interest in it than say the normal person and a little bit more understanding and I can look at things a little bit different. And I just like conversing even with our nutritionist Nigel Mitchell, conversing back and forth with him and talking about different ideas and understanding and I can just push that little bit deeper than I guess probably just the normal normal person. Have you played around with like ketones and add an MCT oils into coffees and these sort of little hacks? Oh yeah, yeah. Not necessarily ketones but definitely like I went down the rabbit hole of you know like a low carbon like super low carbon MCT and bullproof. How low are we talking under carps? Well the thing is once you go down that rabbit hole you sort of this is before I was starting an understandable cycling, which is what I'm a bit more doing now is like low carbon and high carbon and understanding that the body is having better reactions to the different stimuluses and going, whoa, I don't even know what the hell's going on. Monday you give me nothing, Monday you give me so much and I was getting much more reaction from that. A really good training effect, but also a really good weight loss, fat, adaption effect on the other side. When I was going down the low carbon path, I guess probably three or four years ago, maybe more five years ago. What I found was in order to keep getting adaptions and keep getting a stimulus, I just had to keep going lower and lower until you just felt like you were just more or less eating, you know, slugs of butter and a handful of nuts, you know, like it was ridiculous because you're just like, I wasn't, the body was adapting so quickly that you just had to keep challenging it and just kept going down that rabbit hole and ultimately my performance suffered because I was just under fueled and that was a really good experience, really good. I don't know about that. Sorry. I really good at what I have been experienced, but I certainly suffered for it, even in big races like the pain, I always remember that. I just put myself such in a hole in one stage because I had glucose in the muscles I could get through that stage, but I paid for it the days after. I was like, what's going on here? I'm sort of understanding that. So has your content nutrition now found a happy medium between probably the very high like Arab diet, they advocated when you were in college. Set a crazy ketone one, you try it. Have you found a happy medium now? I think I've just understood a little bit more on how much you actually do need to perform well. And at the end of the day, carbs, glucose is what fuels us. So, there's a bit of a dogfight going on here. Sorry about that. Here we go. But yeah, so what I've understood there is, and that's purely for performance. And I was sort of touching a little bit of trying to do fat adoption and things like that in performance days like races or important training periods. There's a time and a place for each. And I think there's a time and a place to either lose weight or do fat adoption. And you just have to look at those days as their training days, but they're not pure performance days. And I was getting a little bit mixed up with combining both. And now I know when I'm training hard or trying to produce good training or racing, I've got to fuel up properly and even in races, I've got to monitor that fuel and we're going, how much I need every hour or every race day or post race and all that sort of stuff.

3.Do you have a guideline in your head now

So do you have a guideline in your head now? So if you're going to go off and ride as angels, like what, a 10, 15 minute climb, you're going to ride that three times today a threshold in a four-hour ride. Do you have like a macro goal in your head that you need to hit like 300 grams of carbs that day? Or is it that's very specific? No, I definitely, I look, I loosely, I look at around 70 to 100 grams of carbs an hour. And whether that could be, you know, I have high carb training days. So we also, you have to be careful. One thing I also realized is you have to be careful that on a race day, everything's available and you feel properly on a race day. But if you haven't been training that, your body actually doesn't absorb it that well. You sort of have to train the body for absorption. And I didn't realize that. So I was doing these low-carb fat-adoption days in training, and pretty much just as everyone does. You know, you just head out in the right, and you might suffer a coffee half way, and then come home. Not really feeling you get through the right. If you're just sort of creeping at the end, it doesn't matter because you just go home, it's training. But what I was actually doing, apart from a sort of sub-day, physically riding, I was also untraining my body to fuel. And so then when I went in the next week to try and pump in a hundred grams of carbon hour I'd sort of have stomach problems like I can't take that much and I was like oh hang on I've actually got to do days and overeat or not overeat but eat as much as I'm eating in a race day So a good example like you were just saying is I'll pick days every so often linear up to race and I'll might have You know fat adoption days sort of a month out as I get closer to races I was just putting one day a week where I'm doing race specific meals prepping before the ride, in the ride, fueling up appropriately. And then maybe after the ride, I might just do a recover low to sort of flush some of those carbs out because, you know, I've achieved what I need to do around that. Well, because it's almost a double-edged sword, like you're saying your body's not used to absorbing the stuff, but also if you're going out training, like most of us do, and you're doing a four-hour road and you just stop for a coffee and, you know, grab a bow and halfway trail. On the way home, if you're out of bit empty, you're not getting the same adaptations that you would be if you're creeping home a 200 watts rather than riding home a strong 260 watts. It's a different adaptation there. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And I think that was just sort of a cultural loophole that we all fall into. And I just think the way, look, I'm just comparing maybe the way that I started cycling and first-term professional to the way that the the professional scene is now. And I'm sure you're very aware that everyone's training so professionally now. And back in the day, sort of 10 years ago, if you were talking about this sort of stuff, people just thought you were crazy. That just wasn't the culture, you know? I have a buddy who's a director for the Irish team that went pro over a while, I called Blue Sport. And he was saying to me, there's a word that comes before cycling, and that's professional. That's true. And it's like you speak to anyone, the older pros, even from, you know, back in the late 90s and early 2000s and I sort of expect them to say, these are directors and older projects, always expect them to say, you know, we had it harder in our day and this sort of stuff. But what I'm hearing more often than not now is you guys have it harder. You guys train harder. You guys recover harder. You do everything much more professional. And even a good example is on a grand tour, we used to get back from the, this is in the old days, get back from the stage. And we'd go walk the town and hang out in the town and and check out the SARS and whatever. And you know, we're just back in the hotel and massage and on your bed and you know, impression boots on and yada yada yada. So that's just a massive change in the whole of recycling. I know you're a big believer in mindsets. I heard a story that you were talking about your first time you stuck down a goal of winning tree races in a single season. And I don't think you quite got the tree the following year. But does goal set and play a big role in your sort of life generally and specifically in your soil and season. It really does, yeah. I think, and this is something I've spoken about a lot of times before is that, and I don't want to get too carried away on not achieving the goal, but sometimes it's actually not about achieving that goal. But you set that goal, and it's what you do on the way to achieving that. If you can achieve that, fantastic. But sometimes you don't achieve it, and you think, hang on, if I didn't even have that goal, I wouldn't have done half of that shit on the way to try to achieve that. You know what I mean? Like I wouldn't have, you know, tried to diet or try to force myself to do that effort because you just got this, you know, look, a good example of this being last year. I was trying to make the Tour de France team and I thought, how am I gonna make the Tour de France team? I need to get my time trolling, I'm just scratching. I need to be a good team's time troll, that's my tip in here. So I just focused on my time trolling. And, well, and behold, my time trolling went right through the roof. Really really good in my eyes. I started fishing you know top 20s in world tour time trolling no one expected that I didn't make the tour France team But what I saw out of those I learned how to time trial and I got this belief in this confidence in myself But hang on I can time trial, you know and that took me on another sort of rabbit hole I was like all right. I've got this belief out of it. Yes, I didn't chief the goal of making the tour team But there was a whole lot of positives that came out of it too So that's what I love about goal setting But it's like that saying like where your attention goes, your energy flows.

4.Think that's super important. If you read like, Tink and Grow Rich in…

And I think that's super important. If you read like, Tink and Grow Rich in Napoleon Hill book, you'd like that. It's an out of dude back in the day, like Andrew Carnegie time. I'm not sure when he was around, it was early 1900s. But Andrew Carnegie was a massive, you know, he's the Bill Gates of that era. And he gave one precedent that access to a journalist to just follow him and all his rich crony bodies around and figure out what it takes to be successful. And he wrote a book, I think it's like the second best selling book ever behind the Bible. And it's called Tinkindrow Rich. And he talks a lot about this stuff. Like, so what he says is, you do like you're saying, where you put down your goals for a season, like get better at TT so I can get picked in the tour time. And then every morning when you get up, you read those goals and every night gone to bed. Just before you got to bed, you read those goals and his idea, I probably would have been a bit close to this sort of stuff a few years ago. His idea is you'll start to, the world will start to manifest and it'll start to give you the resources you need to achieve those goals and you'll start to notice things you didn't previously notice. Like say you with the TT, like you might see some obscure study about frontal area last year. And you might have seen that the year before and just flicked right past it. But because you've stuck that down on paper, the theory is that you've now activated something called your reticular activation system, which helps you notice things. And now you'll notice that maybe it'll make a change for you. And totally, I believe that the wording I sort of use is the subconscious, you know, you just subconsciously do stuff because you've got that and it worked through the whole season, you know, like you have that goal at the end of the year. I want to make the world championship seem, you don't know why you're doing these certain things throughout the year, but only when you achieve that goal or get closer to that goal, you look back and go, huh, maybe I was doing those things because in my subconsciously wonder what you've just got. You were talking there about a change in into a TT guy, you know, but when I look at your career, like, you know, obviously, I have the podcast in the coaching company, but above all this, like, I'm a massive cycler fan, like before I even started racing, I was a cycler fan. So I've probably anarach knowledge that some lads might know, but I remember you getting started and like you were a sprinter in my mind, you weren't a lead out dude, you were a dude for sprinting and then you sort of merged into lead out dude and then a lead out dude who could get over to the high mountains when maybe you were going to go his coldens and then all of a sudden you could ride the front a bit and now all of a sudden you can TT a bit like talk to us about how that, it's a complete change as a rider across your career. I think what I realized pretty quickly early in my career is first of all that sprinting stuff is I realized I wasn't ultimately fast enough as the big guys and that's one thing you got to understand is everyone's a winner I think in their own small pool before they become well-tour. They're all it's it's like all winners come in and then you understand okay now where do I fit the really good guys go on to be winners and the rest of us sort of slot in somewhere and I sort of quickly realized, okay, I'm not that quick. And so I quickly realized that I'm quick enough to also help us bring to get there. And then I followed that path for a while and actually a few, a lot of guys I sort of looked up to when I moved to Green Edge. I sort of was able to go under their wing and I really respected them a guy like Brett Lancaster. I respected everything he did and I sort of followed that path. Maybe I wasn't exactly suited to that or what what I was, I don't know, but I wanted to do that. And that's a big part of it too. But then during that time in Grandinj, I quickly realized also that you've got to be able to evolve as a pro. If you want to have a long career, you've got to quickly realize what the team wants out of you and you've got to be able to evolve into that to a degree. I couldn't become a Grandinj or a winner, but I was just like, okay, I can't I'm a lead out man, but then all of a sudden I was leaning out Michael Matthews and Michael Matthews needed a lead out guy I could get over clients with Michael Matthews. It was no good if I was a lead out man. I was always getting dropped, he was getting over clients. I was like, shit, I've got to get there as well. Then I quickly realized, okay, I was, Matthews left the team and I was working with Caleb Ewan. And Caleb Ewan ended up needing a faster guy than I was, so they found a new lead out man. So I was like, well, what am I gonna do? I had to evolve then into a guy that could also prepare the lead out guy, but also that's not a good enough job just to hold your job. have to do something else as well, a bit better riding the front, being a bit more of a road captain. And so you just got to keep evolving if you don't realize that, you're quickly out of a job, and someone else better and younger will take you position. How much does that come from you and the emotional intelligence to just read the Reuters, read the staff and recognize how you need to adapt versus someone like Matt White, who actually had on the podcast last week, he's a funny fucker. Someone like Mark White, are they giving you much guidance on that? Sometimes, yeah, sometimes, but unfortunately for those guys, they've got so much going on. And you've got to, I think this is something I really do talk about with a lot of guys. You've got to build your own team around yourself. Well to a team is a great environment to produce a good team, but actually when it comes the individuals, you've got to come out to the mark yourself and pro cycling is actually an individual sport and you get injured and they'll help you along the way a little bit but ultimately once you sort of they cut your loose pretty quick if you're not out there.

5.Did realize pretty quickly as well that, hang on I need a team around…

So I did realize pretty quickly as well that, hang on I need a team around me, a team that works with me through different through different cycling teams. So if I move from, you know, Skill Shimano to Green Edge to EF, I've still got my own individual team around me. It's not going to change every time I change cycling teams. So that was, you know, a coach, a psychologist, you know, someone I meant to, or that I could talk to, who made me realise these things, just bouncing conversations off them. And do you credit them for, you know, steering that ship or is that innovation Larishly common from you. I wouldn't say they necessarily told me those exact things I was saying to you, but it's just these conversations and having the right people to talk to like mentors and just passing that knowledge on and maybe then you come to that realization yourself because you're able to decompress and talk about your feelings a little bit more open rather than just keeping it all inside and bottling it up and you're just stuck in your own thoughts. And I think I think sometimes being out of expressive with people outside of the bubble allows you to realize, oh, you know what? I've got it. I know what I need to do now. And that's sort of helped me being able to just express my thoughts outside of even my own household and not just talking to my wife or what often happens when you're training with other cyclists is you just sort of to a degree bitch a bit. You know, you bitch about that, you bitch about this and you just need to get out of that world and talk to someone who's, for me, back in Australia who's got no idea about this world And they just see it from a different eyes and go, you know what, I am a bit of an idiot. I was wrong there. It also gets context, doesn't it, to your problems? You think, you know, the fucking little bit of a bitchy scrapping fight going on means something. And it just doesn't like, once you step outside of the little, like I loved your own and I try to get out there as much as I can. But you do get the feeling that it is a wee bit of a prox like when bubble there and that's got to add to that sort of echo chamber effect. It does. And I really don't advise really young guys to come to a place like this, because they get the wrong idea. And I think it's a great place if you're a pro, as you know, world to a pro, because you can live that life that you can live the life you want to live. And I think when you're coming here before you're a pro, you think you can live this life of a pro, but actually you haven't made it yet. so you don't deserve to do those things in my eyes. I think you need to earn your stripes to come to a place like this. You need to race in an amateur team in France, race in an amateur team in Belgium, wherever it is, learn your way and earn to live in a place where, you know what, I can go for dinner and I can have a few beers if I want to because you know what you need to do to be a pro. I think as an amateur you sort of do these things and lose your way a bit before you even made it. Well, even the amateur French team I was at, the director always said to me, Le Métier. I never even really knew what the English translation of that was directly, but I just took it as like, it's the apprenticeship, the groins, the hard work, the sacrifice. That's what you'd be five hours into a training road and you'd want to get into the car and you'd just be like, Le Métier, Le Métier. And you'd just be like, oh, yeah, it's what I know what he wants here. I'm not getting the lift home. Totally. And I think, you know, to a degree, as harsh as it sounds, it eliminates the guys before they go on and then eventually stop. You know, like sometimes I feel like some guys are becoming well until before they actually need to be. And the only lasting one or two years when ultimately they could have gone through the hardships and gone, you know what, I'm out. This is not for me because you see the harsh reality of what cycling is in the amateur world. of it after that time in amateur under 23 sort of roughing it. Yeah, you're going to be a pro because you've done your time and you're ready to go. Do do do do do do do do do do. It's public service announcement time regular listeners you know what this is. It's the intermission. It's the time to stick the kettle on. It's the time to less your exhalation helps just go relax and go. You know what the podcast been pretty cool so far. I'm going to strap myself in get a bit of hydration Get a bit of sustenance on board here and get ready for the second half of the podcast. But it's also the time we use for reminding you to head on over to patreon.com forward slash Anthony underscore waltz. That is the mechanism for keeping this podcast going. That's how you support the podcast. The generosity of some of your fellow listeners is sustaining this podcast. It's allowing me, we haven't quite reached break even with the podcast yet. But every time someone subscribes on Patreon, I just get a lovely, warm feeling to know that we're going the right direction, to know that we're a couple of euro closer to this being a sustainable project that I can roll out. I just gotta go down to Martin Luther King, I have a dream vibe here, but I have a dream that we have to bring you this podcast. Join the Tour de France, join the Vuelta España, the Giro d'Italia, live insights where I can use the contacts I'm making in this podcast, but I can pick up the phone and I can ring Mitch Docker and go, Mitch, that was a fucking cool day there. Do you want to talk to us about it? I'll give you an insight that no one else is doing at the moment. That's what I want for this podcast. Please help me to achieve that dream over on patreon.com forward slash Anthony underscore watch. Okay, let's get back to that cool, rustic Australian voice of Mitch Docker. You know when you say you're gonna be a pro at what points, you know, you've obviously, What are you in year 12, year 13 or something?

6.You've obviously made it in the world's world, but at what point do…

You've obviously made it in the world's world, but at what point do you start getting comfortable? Because, you know, can you put down roots on a two-year contract? Or how does that work? I think what happened is, I look, I did three years with Skill Shimano in Holland and Belgium. And then when I moved to Green Age, I moved to Spain and Drona. And at that point there, I think after the first year, I was still living on all my scrappy sort of Ikea slash whatever anyone game is furniture in drone that I bought down from Belgium. And I realized then it wasn't, look I still had a pretty nice little setup but it wasn't home you know. It was a makeshift sort of home and then at that point there when you know I could, I only had a two year contract with Greenwich I was like well I could be out of a contract next year but I also could be out of a contract if I don't make this feel like home and be the bullet and went, okay, let's just set this up the way I want and this is it, you know, it could be one more year or it could be 10 more years, but let's at least enjoy it. And I think that transition right there was when you come home from a tough race or even an ice race, coming home and feeling like home away from home was a big, was a big turning point because I started to think like this is my home and training a little bit more like I used to do in Australia and feeling a little bit more like I was back home. Have you bought a place in drone? Are you still renting out there. I'm still renting yeah like I didn't go that far and I was sort of talking about this with Mike Woods the other day that a funny thing is the place I would have bought year one year two compared to the place that I'm living in now is just completely different and not that there's anything against that I wanted to live right down in the city originally and then as we've got older with kids and stuff I want to live in a house sort of out of the city so I'm sort of really happy that I never did that because I would have been hating life in the middle of a small town now, two kids. I see it's getting dark in the background there. And I was just thinking about some of the new boy-o-hacks that have come around, block and blue light. Have you got into any of that stuff? I have, yes. Probably not recently, because I'm just a bit like just getting up and living somewhat of a normal life and trying to just train and look after the kids and help around the house. So this is a bit different lifestyle now, but definitely when I'm on the race, like I don't have the blue blocker lenses or anything like that, but I just, I try and get it on a bit of a schedule, try and shut the computer or the laptop down. I mean the phone down sort of, you know, at least half an hour if not an hour before I go to bed, and you know, really monitor I wear an aura ring as well, and get into that sort of mindset as well. And definitely when I'm around training, preparing for stuff, But for me, I've got to put it in segments. When I'm on, I'm really on, I just do everything to a T. And when I'm off, I really are just relaxed and just sort of let things go. Have you used the chili pad? It's like a pad that goes under your sheet and cools the bed. I haven't, no. Oh, man, you got to check that out. There's amazing research behind just lowering your body temperature as you're going to sleep. Helps you get into a deeper phase of sleep. And so obviously the regenerative abilities in that deeper phase of sleep are greater, but you have the best night sleep ever on a chili pad. I'd be up for that because you're probably aware once you start training and doing exercise, you just, your muscles are continually, you just start hot. Like you just always hot, no matter how, what the temperature is, you gotta leg out. You're like, I'm so hot in this bed. But you know what's sweet with it? You can have a double bed one and your misses can change the temperature on horse side. So she doesn't have to sleep and see if her colds. You can sleep in the cold. Cause I don't like that. That would be a good thing. Yeah. Like I've done that dance before, trying to get a girlfriend to sleep in an altitude tent. And that's not easy. That would be a good idea because yeah, obviously I'm always turning the, opening the windows and things like that. And I watch the opposite. We were talking about sprinting there. And obviously you can't think much about sprinting when you're thinking the dangers. And I know you didn't have your bad crash sprint. but when I think about Crash, your one in Roubaix was 2016, your Haman one, that was particularly fucking gruesome. Do you feel like talking about that or is it an emotional scar? That's okay. Yeah, it was a big sort of in a way of turning point in my career. It just allowed me to sort of stop and assess things, you know, as things go, I think in all walks of life you get caught up in something and you know, next thing you know you're just doing something because you're just doing it or you're good at it or you're getting paid to do it or whatever, you don't really know why you're doing it. That was the case with me and that crash really allowed me to sit back in the hospital bed and even the weeks after recovering in this go. Why am I doing this? Do I actually like this? You know, like this is causing a lot of people's stress and potential I could why now and does your your married, aren't you? I am. Does your wife worry? I'm not that I know. Okay, for sure, like I think early in my career I was training without a helmet. And that was just how it was. And then they came a point, I think like, my own joint green edge, you know, maybe the first year I was, then this sort of was the question like, I think you should wear a helmet now. And like, I never really had that before. I was like, well, what is that matter? I was like, well, I want you to crash and crack it open.

7.There's never been too much

So there's never been too much. Yeah, of course, like, of course, she is worried and she sees that sort of stuff. And she's the first person I speak to. After the crashes I know she's thinking about it. But, um, so like she sort of tells me every day that I don't want you to crash or I'm worried about you. So yes. So for anyone who hasn't seen that crash, it was from my recollection, the peloton was split. You were in the back half of the split. You tried to give a gas on Caraford elaborate. And then I don't know what happened because the YouTube clip that I watched was just like, I think the camera mum wiped out. It was insane. It was like a grenade went off. Yeah, it was in Forest of Aruenberg. And yeah, exactly what he said, it crashed on the sector before in Wallace. And the crash split the pels on. And exactly what he said, I was just thinking, you know what? As we hit this, I've got one chance to make the front group again. I was like probably 50 rides in the front. Gap was probably 10, 15 seconds. I thought I'm going to go for it. Look, I don't think I really hit it much harder than I normally would, but maybe this is my only afterwards sort of recollection of why or how I maybe crash. Maybe I went in just a bit to overzealous, you know, just like I'm going to get down. was wet was just wet between the cobbles and I think I just lost the front wheel and the hands never got off so I just went straight down face first in the hardest sector of the roof. Yeah like when you think about horrific crashes that like you just don't want to rewatch I always think you're one and then you remember Bramier's one obviously fellow country man of mine like they were just horrific to like I don't know how Bramier is the lawyer if like that The crash was insane. On the scene in... In New York? Yeah, California, was it? I thought it was... It was like in Utah or something. Oh, it might have been, yeah. It was like a left-hander, I think. I don't even know what speed he came on. It was insane. Yeah. Your 12 years in the bunch, what's... You know, what's the stand there, which kind of funny memories? who are the good lads and the bunch? Cause I know even on the podcast, you get a sense talking to some like guys, you know, there's little clicks in the bunch. Some guys have gray phone and little groups, but then there's other guys who kind of keep them themselves. And there's a few guys who are just dicks that I won't name. But he was cracking the bunch. Or who do you gravitate towards? Look, I think we had a really good time in, in green edge. And I really did have a good time racing with my countrymen. I think coming out of a Dutch team, I was sort of craving that. And I've sort of gravitated in the, even after that time, to look Derberieger and Michael Hepburn and Sam Buelly. It's sort of a couple of close makes. We train together and hang out together as well. We're just sort of like minded and want to do the same things. Want to enjoy time off the same way and also train hard the same moment. So that sort of really helps. when you're in the races it's always funny like especially I just think of like Bules, Sam Bui and the Boils are catching up on those hard moves most often they're not fine ourselves in the same group when when the bunch just split so boys got to make their all look up the road and see where Bules is got to make sure I make it into the group with him because it'll be a long day if I don't get there so they're really good guys and to be honest a lot of I There's not so many now, but a lot of my good friends were the guys that I had in my first professional team, Skill Shimano, a guy, Belgium guy, Bert DeBaca, and a German guy, Robert Wagner. They were really close mates and I think why is that? I spent so much other time in other teams and so many other good guys as well. They just don't really keep contact with these two guys, especially keep contact with. I think that was just because maybe I was just a bit more vulnerable in those early years and looking for that friendship and opening myself up to those guys and really connected with them early on in my career. Just guys I always go back to and just talk, probably talk to them more times in tough times than happy times because I feel like I can relate to them and speak to them about different little problems and they know me from the beginning. I like that. Well, I think that's how you know it's a good mate. like if you're removed from it, like at the end of your cycling days, who will you stay in touch with? You know, when you don't have cycling to talk about anymore, like what power did you do on that climb today? Like when the conversation goes beyond that, I started thinking that's kind of how I'd classify and make. So I've had teammates who I'd get on great with, but then I left the team and like I haven't talked to them since. Yeah, and that is sort of the sad thing and you do realize that and look, you understand that as well. And this team here that I'm in now, EF Education, first, one thing I noticed, especially when I came here, was I could really be myself in this team. And there's quite a lot of great characters here and just really connected with even Taylor Finney last year. I was really sad to see him not go on because we had a great connection. Seems like a really nice guy. Great guy, you know. And I had a different opinion on me before I met him. But once I got to know him, I was just like, wow, this is a really, really great guy. I really connected with him and he's one of those guys I have sat in contact with you know it's only been a few months since you stopped but I can see that being in a relationship that I would say in contact with. Are you dipping your toe into the corner alternative stuff? I heard you talking about doing a little bit of gravel stuff with Spenceoft. Yeah look I would like to I just think some of that stops a little bit out of my realm you know like Cape Epic and maybe even Leadville, it seems like it's a little bit more mountain biking, but I think like Dirty Kansas, a few people have tipped off that it could be a race for me.

8.Not ultra technical and just a bit of a hard man's day and that's the…

Not ultra technical and just a bit of a hard man's day and that's the sort of thing that I like, not just on and on, sort of on the pedals all day and not ultra technical. I do like a bit of gravel and loose stuff, but I don't like necessarily single track and downhill and big jumps and stuff. So that could be something I'd love to do. funny because I've had most of the big gravel boys on like Ted King in Boswell and then I've chat to Pete's Denner but I haven't released it yet. And there's such a disconnect between all of them like Pete's Denner still pro like his head is like he's a world tour. He's making all the same sacrifices looking at all the tiny details. But then you look like Ted King's just like wants to have a beer and ride hard and then in Boswell I don't know he like strikes me as a man who just wants to put down roots and hang out with his wife, I'm not even sure if he wants to do gravel. It's just so different at the moment. I think that's kind of cool, but the worry is, I suppose, too many world tour guys come across. I know two of your teammates last year went across and done it, then does it just become world tour again? If we wanted to watch world tour, we can just watch world tour. Yeah, I think I was speaking of Lockheed, Lockheed Morton about this in the summer of of Australia and he was against it too. He's like, you know, we don't need a gravel world champs. We don't need that to come into it. Let's just leave it as is because we don't need team buses there and things like that. There's an element of, you know, do it yourself tight feel with those races. You know, you need something fixed or you rock up and you all stay together in a hotel. We don't need swan years there and, you know, yada yada, comes with and then special what we do as a pro cyclist. I think I agree with you. Let's just keep them a bit separate. That trip with Sven, how hardcore is Sven? He's a guy I must talk to. I have a few mutual friends with him and I was actually planning to go over. He's trying to kick off a gravel type torrenting and I was meant to come over and do some days gravel with him before the whole COVID lockdown. So maybe I'll make it happen. But give me a heads up. How hardcore is he? Yeah, he's business called Tough Adventures. It's a really cool idea and we did this trip with him, sort of like a farewell. Like I said, pretty much all those guys were speaking about happy, turbo, bules, me, and another guy, Simon Guerans' brother, Andy Guerans. And yeah, it was just like, it was a little bit over our heads actually. Because Swaino, he does all that stuff solo. And I guess he just sort of thought we're at that level because we physically are all at that same sort of level. But we were doing some crazy stuff, like plenty of hike a bike. We did this one day. And the thing that sort of cracked me about Swain was, he would never really tell you how far it was. He was like, please. Because he's just sort of like, I don't actually know. It's a ways, you know? but I was like, I need to know the exact kilometer slash time this is gonna take, because I need to break it down. And, you know, like this one particular day coming back into Andorra, we woke up, he's like, oh, it's the road climb and then some gravel and then a bit of hiking. And literally what it was was an hour climb on the road, like hard as an hour, like loose gravel, like, oh, like really loose sharp rock. road sort of road like you know or pill and our an hour of that and then After that like every time you like just keeping it up So you got to like always keep power down like I'm balancing power like an hour of that and then after that I was just like throw the bike on your shoulders proper our Hour and a half of like hiking with a bike on your shoulders. We get to the top of this thing and we're just like This is better be the top Because we were broken, it was the last day, and we descended all the way down to Endora, and it was awesome. I think that, I know he had the idea of that, but that ship there sort of really formulated what he really wanted to do after his career, and maybe also to realise like, well, okay, I need to take it back about 25 notches, but that's his business now, that he wants to sort of show people the Pyrenees and experience that. whatever comes with that. It doesn't necessarily have to be hardcore biking. There can also be some great trails just hanging out and staying these great maseas and these great pincionis having sheep, beautiful home-cooked meals and just adventuring and hiking and seeing like the places we went to. One thing I speak to these guys about is one thing we forget is it rained the whole time and it's probably at the very most 10 degrees, the whole trip. But I don't remember that at all Or because it was just such an epic trip. I don't remember the rain, the weather at all. And when that happens, you're like, I was so, so like a veteran in the zone, just loving life. Just like, just looking around and just challenged and just looking around. Like every so often you just stop because you had to, because you're fucked or you just like fell off your bike. I mean, you look around, you're like, holy shit, why am I, this is so cool. But like, isn't it like the one of the main reasons, I know for me, it was the main reason I got into cycling. I didn't even know what racing was probably when I got my first bike as a kid. It was exploring the local park and pushing those boundaries and just getting that feeling like, oh my God, you'll never believe this shit I seen today. Exactly. Yeah, just exploring. I think to go back to the Rubée crash, that was the first thing that made me realize I still wanted to go on was I went for a ride just on the road up in Andorra. I was just riding up a mountain, which, you know, I'm a mountain climber, but I enjoy riding on mountains. And I said, this is awesome. You know, this is just where I want to be right now.

9.Realized, this is what I love. I love just riding

I realized, this is what I love. I love just riding. Okay, racing and training, that's also something else. But I just love being on my bike because it's my time. The chance to think and decompress and process and whatever I need to do, it's my time. Plus, there's the element of just exploring. That's sort of the edge. I agree. I love cycling and all the extreme to it. But isn't it just the best meditation? I'm talking to a lot of guys who are just getting into cycling and I'm telling them how cycling is a tool to make them happier. The research we have around meditation and the power of meditation now and so many people struggle with that distracted mind. I don't need to formally meditate. I can ride a decline that's 45 minutes long. I literally won't think of a fucking single thing only the effort up there. It's such a pure focused talk process. I agree and also on the other side of that, I can also think about things I need to. You know, like if I'm going to move things running through my mind, I just need to get out and just work, work shit out. I can just get on my bike and come home and go, yeah, you know, I know what I want to do now. No distractions and you get time to think. Mitch, I'm going to have this philosophy where time is like the asset I always protect. I'll happily spend money. It's a replenishable resource. For me, I'm like, it's times important because if I spend my time down something stupid, it's time I can't spend with family with loved ones. I don't listen to a lot of podcasts, but I listen to your podcasts, Life in the Felitan. Talk to me about how that came about. It seems like it's been a wild success for you. Yeah, look, Life in the Peloton was pretty much as the title says. I was traveling back to Australia every year. This is sort of in 2016, actually. And so I was sort of middle of my career and going, you know what? I don't actually think anyone really understands what life in the Peloton is really like, what I do. Because I kept getting asked those same old questions, you know, do you guys all live in, you know, one big team house over there? and she gets sponsored or how does it work with bikes and stuff and stuff like that. Hang on. You don't really actually know. I'm like, there's nothing really out there that explains exactly like simple stuff, not cycling news gossip stuff, just like simple breakdown what our life is like. And I thought I was listening to quite a lot of podcasts at the time and I really enjoyed the whole idea of it going out for a ride and just listening to someone talk. felt like you actually having someone there with you on the right. So I thought, well, let's have a go at this. You know, maybe I can just sort of break down what our life is like. I thought there's something interesting in it. And I thought I've got access to a lot of guys in the Peloton. And I just did a recording with Luke Derviges as the first one on my iPhone, just a tester. I was like, well, I'm not going to release this. I didn't even know how to release at that point. Let's just record something and see what happens. Of course, I released that one. But it was just sort of rolled from them. What I found after the years of doing it is that the podcasts, yes, it was still for the listeners out there, but I was actually getting as much as the listener out of it myself because I was really asking the questions I wanted to know. You know, picking the brains of guys, I really wanted to find out how they did stuff and that's sort of how it's being going. But you know, it just feels so real as well. Like I kind of have a two ends of spectrum. your podcast, it just feels like, you know, if you have it in your out trying, it just feels like you're out with the lats and you're just listening to their top process. And on the good end of like that podcast, I don't even know what's called a cycling podcast or something sponsored by Rafa. And I'm just like, who listens to this shit? Like this, this is not like real life, or it's not cycling. It's some, I don't know, fuck game or sitting in their basement talking about cycling. Well, the funny thing is you say that we're actually now with the cycling podcast. So Lionel Bernie, he came approached me in the Vuelta and he said, look, more or less what you said, I really like what you do and we're looking to add something to our stream because we've got an audience that appeals to exactly what you just said. There's a lot of people out there who want to know what's going on in racing, day to day racing and stuff like that. he goes, I feel our audience would really like to hear what you just said, what actually happens inside the pill time. And look at the time, and this is the boss of last year, at the time I was looking for the next step for my podcast. I wasn't getting, I was not getting any money from it, well I wasn't then getting any money from it. And I was sort of at the point where I was like, I was just doing on the bare bones and my sort of equipment. And I was just like trying to find time to do it. And I was like, I saw was looking for that next step. and he said, look, we can support you. And I thought, you know what, they've got a lot of listeners out there. And maybe if I can get to another bigger audience, more people will enjoy this. And they can help me go to that next step. I've increased my audio equipment. But also, one thing I've noticed, and my next episode is an awesome episode. And I would have never have done this on my own, is that I've sort of got someone else to report to. And when it was just me, I could always sort of find a somewhat of an excuse. You know what, I'll just do it next week or whatever. And now I'm involved with someone else. It's like, okay, I've got to put it out every two weeks. That's what I've signed up to and I'm going to do it. And I've really enjoyed that the podcast has gone up. Another level, I'm searching for better people to talk to. Not better, but I'm more people to talk to.

10.I'm just pushing myself. And a great example is that the most recent…

And I'm just pushing myself. And a great example is that the most recent podcast, which actually comes out tomorrow, I'm talking to my Giro de Talya team from 2014. We won the team's time trial there. And I went out and interviewed. That was in Ireland, wasn't it? It was in Ireland, it was in Dublin, yep. And I went and interviewed all my teammates, except for one, and telling you guys, even Centeremimita, but I got the eight other guys. Sorry to interrupt you, Mitch. I had Matt White on, and I think it was the Italian teammate you just mentioned. said he didn't do a tour and then he was bitching on my own and that he didn't get the jersey at the end. Well, I got wide on. So that's the best thing. So yeah, I got wide on as well. And we talk about this and like I said, I probably wouldn't have done it because it's just a whole lot too much work. It was like eight hours recording for essentially wanting our podcast. But I listened to the rough copy tonight and I was just like, cut down. That was awesome. It's a really good point and personally for me it was great to go back through that and I think for the other guys too just to bring up that memory and what we all realised is there's a real high point from our career that you sort of at the time don't realise but looking back you're like wow that was a really special moment. Mitch this has been class getting an insight. I know there's going to be a bunch of people now listening to this gone. I just thought Mitch was allowed with a curl maul at an 80s moustache but there's a bit more or two, or where can they follow you? Well, you guys, you gotta go and listen to Life in the Peloton. Look, if you haven't heard any episodes before, you can still get my feed on Life in the Peloton who's just still up there on iTunes and whatever. And we're also releasing this other episode because I thought, well, I've got these guests and I still wanted to keep my little feed going. I'll do this little extra thing called Talking Loft, which is just pretty much talking about style and coffee and just other crap about the guests that I've already gone on there. So we do like a 45 minute hour long podcast that gets presented up on the cycling podcast now. So go across the cycling podcast and check out Life in the Pelts on there. But if you also want to check out a little extras, it's almost like a little bonus pack on the old DVDs. You go across to every other week and check out Life in the Pelts on there's Talking Lufth. There's like a 10 or actually sometimes whitey is the new talking look for two weeks time So he's like a 30 minute one because you know he just got some gold and stuff there So that's that's you can definitely get that there and you know send me a message on Instagram I'm sure you'll find me there's Mitch Bowen or on Life in the pelts on there as well and just give me some ideas give me some feedback because I love hearing from you guys, so Mitch it's been a pleasure really appreciate it She's mine, great to be on and hopefully in Tokyo is off today. Cheers mate. That's it. Another roadman podcast is a wrap. Every week I learn so much. I'm just absolutely captivated by these conversations and it is always so humbling for me to get inside the mind of these guys who are racing the biggest races in the world. You know what? because the podcast is starting to pull these really big guests and these really big names out of time when there's no racing on the TV. What's going to be real weird is when we go back to watching racing. And I'm definitely going to be rooting for these lads like we'd Mike Wozan a few weeks ago, Mitch Docker today. It's going to be hard to not see EF in the final of a race and be thinking, she used to help Mitch does well. I helped Mike does as well. There you go. There are my rambling. If you enjoyed the podcast, please do as I say during the intermission. I hope you're liking the intermission. Please do head on over to patreon.com forward slash Anthony underscore Walsh and buy me a point to bear you buy me a coffee. That's your way to just say, you know what chap? Thanks for facilitating the podcast. I'm enjoying it. Getting a lot of value from it for you. It might seem like a small gesture, it might seem like a trivial amount of money, but for me it is, I'm like a broken record on this one, but I'm gonna keep beating this drum, it's validation for me that the podcast is gone in the right direction. It's validation for me that we're doing a lot of things right and it's also hoped that someday we will get to a place where this podcast is a sustainable venture and I can finally justify the many, I can't tell you the countless errors I put in behind the scenes, not only to edit the number two in the podcast, but to get these guests and the networking that's involved in that. It's a difficult, difficult process. And I do thank you for your continued support and I will be back again next Wednesday. Actually, one last thing, if you wanted to be a real good soldier and support the podcast, when you're listening to its screen capture, the podcast share on Instagram stories and tag me tag me and let me know on Instagram stories what you thought about the episode that will be super cool. roadman, I'm gonna see you next week. Thanks for listening.