Pete Stetina has moved across from the World Tour to the Gravel scene but he has no desire to wind down and ease into retirement. Pete is squeezing out every edge he can in pursuit of excellence.
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I rehabbed a couple hours a day at PT and did homework for five days a week, Monday through Friday, when I could get into the PT office. And I started the Tori Utah three and a half months later while walking with a cane, but racing the Tori Utah. And that was what convinced Trek to sign me. me was like, okay, you you rode your bike for three weeks after not walking for three months, you know, if you could finish the tour of Utah, we think you can come back. The big question is this. How do we use cycling as a tool to improve our health, our happiness, and our longevity? That is the question on this podcast, we'll give you the answers. My name is Anthony Welch, and welcome to the Row Man Podcast. Hello roadmen welcome back to another roadman podcast another Wednesday another roadman podcast I hope you're well wherever in the world you're listening and you're ready to tune in now for another 60 minutes of my Absolute incoherent bubbling and rambling I've got a really cool guest today. I've got Peter Stettner Peter Stettner is a a rider who is probably on the tip of a lot of your tongues if you're starting to get into the gravel scene. He's in my mind, there's Peter's death, Naeen Boswell and Ted King, a little bit of a trifecta if you will, are the three guys who are really leading the charge in this transformative sort of responsible revolution we call it within Saiklan that's going on at the moment and we're seeing, yeah, we're definitely seeing him spearhead us and he's coming from a place of a lot of credibility, he's not a blow-in. He is what we would term a bona fide roadman and worthy of the next guest on this podcast. He had a very successful world tour career in his own Roy East Square. He finished it out, Roy would trek Seger Freido before he had a stint with BMC and he had a stint with Garmin, transitions even shepherding Reuter Hejdahl to overall as you're out of the Talia win. And I think that was 2000 that's worth in. Copy your own, copy your own. But he was pivotal that day up the Soviet. I do remember that. And we get into that and we talk about it. And it's a very interesting conversation. It's a fascinating guy. He's a guy who's in the detail. And he's a guy who actually might get back as we get deeper on the gravel scene launches. And we might get him back and do, you know, a little bit of a Pete Stettness corner, because he has unlimited wisdom. And he's a guy who very much unapologetically says he is not on a retirement lap. The transition from road to gravel is not Pete Stentner retiring from cycling. It's very much him up in the ante, doubling down on what he loves and carving a new genre in cycling. So I'm really excited to bring you this. Before I bring you this, two very quick announcements. I launched the roadman merch which went down a treat last week. But the Roman merch are going to leave the link in the description down below. It's one of the ways you can support this podcast. Go buy yourself a cap, buy yourself a jersey, buy yourself a jersey in a smaller size. As I've had a few people contacting me and doing it's aspirational. You can grow into it. I'm going to leave the link to the Roman merch down below or quality swag. Secondly, is the Patreon podcast and the Patreon podcast. The Patreon page. The Patreon page is how I support this podcast. It's a lifeblood of this podcast. If you're listening to this podcast now, please jump on over to Patreon. And I wanna talk to you just really briefly as I came across this during the week in response to someone sent me a message, what is the idea of Patreon? And if we rewind historically, patronage is not a new concept. And you had say Michelangelo and the church would give him a sum of money. They were his Patreon. And you'd have one Patreon, the church and they'd say to Michelangelo, right, you fuck off there now, you paint that ceiling for the next year. And he had to try and be creative when the narrow confines of the job description they gave him paint religious symbolism on the church roof for the next year. And he had to try and weave his creativity into that. But if he paint goals and paints a swash sticker on the church roof, they come along on that you can paint over that we don't like that at all. So they have complete creative control over him. When I think about the modern form of that autonomous patronage is a sponsor getting one total sponsor on because if you get a total sponsor on they have total control over it. If I go and I criticize the race organizers at the Jirat Aliya the ASO but my sponsor is affiliated with the ASO to go you know what I didn't really like that podcast you on with Pete's Den. You're kind of advocating for gravel race and we want to push a road agenda, take that one down. And that's not what I want. I want this podcast to grow. I'm not saying I'll never take on sponsors, but I want to at least de-leverage. That because if I have a body of patrons, you guys, you guys support in this podcast, no one person has creative control. So if a sponsor comes in, I'm not completely beholden to them because I can just say, look, I have a bunch of patrons here. Like I'm keeping them happy. They are what fun this podcast they've been here from the start. So it's a way to keep creative control. It's a way to make sure the content doesn't become sterile. And I know I listen so many silent podcasts and we're in a sterile, silent podcast world at the moment where everyone's afraid to say fuck everyone's afraid to give their real opinion on stuff. And I don't want the roadman podcast to become that. So please if you don't want the roadman podcast to become that jump on over to patreon.com forward slash Anthony underscore waltch I'm gonna leave the link in the description down below and buy me a coffee. Buy me a coffee or a point of beer once a month and just say good luck thanks for the podcast. Help me keep that creative control. Okay I've rambled on and off. You came to listen to Pete Stetner and not listen to me. Pearls of wisdom in this podcast. Pete Stetner, Pete Stetner, welcome to the Rob Man Podcast. Hey, thanks for having me. Man, I'm excited about this chat. Yeah, me too. It's a thanks for reaching out. It gives me something to do during the sit-in-place orders going on. Yeah, although we're just talking before we went on air, you've got a pretty liberal interpretation of the lockdown compared to what's going on. You're going for like a 200 plus K right today?
Yeah, yeah, you know in the US they're starting to release some restrictions and riding your bike is an exercise is still considered an essential activity and It's just about being responsible doing it. You know, I'm it might be a long day, but I'm not pushing the limit in terms of crazy downhill trails and I'm trying to plan my water stops and Like everybody I kind of been Wallowing In in the motivation department kind of wondering what the hell I'm doing so some days. It's good some days It's bad, but I kind of got the the fire in me yesterday to To go for a really big one. I kind of just all I needed was this this idea of a cool route and and that made me want to do it. So yeah, thanks for, it's a little early my time, but yeah, thanks for meeting my schedule. No hassle. We're incontinence certain time. What's that look like for your motivation when we're just not sure when we're gonna be back racing bikes again? It just seems so low down everyone's priority list. I mean, yeah, it's hard for the motivation. I hope it's not too low on everyone's priority. on the government officials who don't ride bikes, it is. But I mean, there's an entire industry around this, and a lot of people's livelihoods around all sporting events, not just bikes. I mean, I think there's also a lot of political lobbying and general communal mental health around having mass sporting events, political money in terms of sporting arenas, which are even more high risk. but it's not just basketball players. It's the janitors, the stadium vendors, all these people. I mean, there's too much industry to really not let events happen in my opinion until fall of 2021 or whatever the most conservative point is. I mean, you'll just, you'll royally screw people's livelihoods over forever. So I hope we're gonna move in back soon. That's cyclin', I don't think we're gonna have a joint So, from definitely the world tour guys anywhere saying, Braylesford, Bjorn Reese kind of really following this. Braylesford's like basically our prioritized the safety of the team and Bjorn Reese's, well, we should prioritize the collective goal to cyclone. I think that's typical of cyclone, just not having an annoyed at front and stuff like this. Yeah, yeah, and that's always been cycling's problem. It's just so global, it's so international that and everyone has their own opinion, and there's no real conservative unifying voice to really push. I mean, I was early days of the North American Writers' Union when I was in the World Tour, trying to get that established and push that bigger. And the Writers' Union has a bit more power now, but it's still a joke. I mean, I don't know if cycling all, it just never got its foothold, and then it just fostered that way, It's really hard to break down those. And I'm sure this is something that's close to your heart after the bad crash you had was the Torr bass country. And I know Reuters safety and that intersection of spectator entertainment versus Reuters safety is something that's It's a difficult balance again. It looks like the Reuters are losing that balance and it's becoming more spectator. You know, it's nearly shocking all tactics from the courses they're designing. Yeah, sometimes. And I'm of both opinions. There are just silly things. Like my crash in the bass country, I mean, that was just negligence. I mean, there was a finishing straight and there wasn't barriers covering metal poles in the road and people from the side of the road. I mean, that was just a joke. But I also think that there's, I mean, at the end of the day, professional sport is entertainment and it's marketing. And people, including writers, talk about the Roubaix stage coming up and what they're going to run, or this crazy dirt road, or anything like that. I mean, I think for cycling to appeal and to be a more profitable sport for all players, I mean, I think there should be some sort of fun craziness going on. It just doesn't need to be stupidly dangerous. But that's for when we actually get racing. And it's not my problem anymore because now I'm a gravel racer. Yeah, I want this podcast. I want most of the forward-looking, but there's definitely something that people, you know, if I don't touch on them ever and I'd be like, oh my God, you had beat on the podcast, you didn't even ask about X, of course. You want to talk to us about that crash and, you know, first for anyone who hasn't seen the crash, just maybe explain what happened. Yeah. I was with BMC Racing at the time, finished in downtown Bilbao. We went over this big cat-to-climb, maybe 20 case from the finish or something, and then screamed downhill into downtown Bilbao. It was a reduced bunch, but there's probably 60 something guys in the Peloton still. I was just gonna finish in the middle of the pack. I mean, I'm not a sprinter by any means. So just get in, pack time, get ready for the next day. We round the final bend and the lead outs are all going. And there were these metal poles about one meter out on the road, some parking bollards. And there, it weren't barricaded off. There was no padding. There was nothing. They're just open in the middle of the road And last minute, some MotoCop had put a orange cone on the top. That was the only protection. So maybe you would say. It's the scratch. So yeah, it was just, I mean, the guys in the front were full sprint head down, not even looking up, like barreling towards the finish, 60k an hour, I think is what my GPS said at the moment of impact. And they look up last minute. They just see it and they kind of swerve out of the way and me being in the middle of the group, it just opened up in front of me and boom, a metal pole straight to the kneecap for course impact. So cracked my tibia all the way down, running along the bone, five ribs, LCL and the biggest one was I completely exploded my kneecap into a bunch of pieces. So what's that like lying on the ground? I remember I had a crash in France, riding for a French team, and it's coming off at the center, the Pyrenees, and a similar type situation. It was a traffic island, it wasn't Mark, no stewards. The bunch just split left and right. I seen it at the last second, hit the traffic island. I can remember like slow motion, go on through the air and landed on the ground and then go on to Miov and just not been able to Miov. Like your instinct is as a bike rider, I gotta get back up here, I gotta get in. but you know, just not been able to move. And then at that moment, just thinking, oh shit, this is bad. Did you have a similar type? You know, it's, yeah. And it's crazy how many stories there are in cycling.
I mean, and that's what blows me away is, I mean, every year you hear a story somewhat like this. And Craig Lewis is another guy in American Pro who that happened to him in the Giro traffic island in the middle of a rainy stage lined out, cracked on, like that ended his career. And for me, it was not that slow-mo, oh, oh shit moment. It was like, all of a sudden I was on the ground, but similar to you, it was like, it was such a traumatic hit. Like, I don't think my brain had even caught up. Like I was trying to get up, and I think it was so heavy that it probably killed a lot of nerves and impact. So I remember like you, bike racer, like, okay, get up just the finish lines right there, just like you're in 3K, get to the line, and then all of a sudden there was paramedics and the team director holding me on the ground, and they're like, no, no, you're not finishing this one. And then the pain really start to set in all of the sun and then the ambulances and all that afterwards. When you were recovered from that injury because of an extensive recovery in rehab, you had to go through, you know, your identity, this is something I'm fascinated about it because as bike riders, everything you do in your life is especially a world-tower rider, everything you do in your life is about performance. And then you're faced with possibly not making it back to the world-tower, possibly not cycling again, never mind making it back to the world-tower. Do you have a little bit of an identity crisis in those dark days going, like if I'm not a bike rider, like who am I? Oh, for sure. Yeah, I mean, I didn't, I mean, yeah, I was through and through World Tour Racer and that was what I did, all my passions. And I was coming into the peak of my career and, I mean, yeah, you go through a lot of those moments and I think most of the world, they wrote me off. Most team directors, most fans, almost everybody just said, okay, his career is done. Like a kneecap. I mean, that thing bends a million times every frickin' ride you go on. I mean, that needs to be perfect. So many most people expected that I was done. And doctors said, you know, depending on how this recovery goes, you may ride a bike again. You may walk again. Or if the bone doesn't survive, I mean, we're going to have to cut your leg off. It's just a wait and see kind of thing. So it was just, it was cracked down pretty severely from the tip of the bone, you know, where like the marrow and all that is. So like how do you deal with that wood here in those words from a doctor? Oh, there was a lot of dark days, you know, and I mean, I kind of just decided at one moment once, I mean, I don't think we have enough time in this podcast for it, but just the whole extrication from the US and even trying to get home. I mean, that's a freaking novel and an adventure story itself. But it's crazy. because I was talking on a podcast a couple of weeks ago and I had a bad crash in, I'll give you the the abbreviated version, this one, I'm right, a bad crash in Detroit. It was my last bad crash actually before I stopped full-time cycling. I was a bunch sprinting a criterium in Detroit and I was on the ground and I broke in like ribs, shoulder, collarbone, badly rolled rash and I collapsed long. So I was struggling for breath and stuff and ambulance comes over and he's like, you know, what do you want to do here?" And I was like, you know what do I want to do? Like, I feed to the fucking hospital. Then he's like, do you have health insurance? And I started to think, and you know, I've been through a law school at this stage and I started to think in terms of conditions, it's like, if I go into the hospital here in a skin suit with a number on my back, I'm not sure if this covers me. And so anyway, after a bit of consultation with my girlfriend at the time, and the ambulance driver, I decided the best course of action was to get into the car, get a bottle of whiskey, my girlfriend to drive me back across the border and go to hospital in Canada. Oh my god. It was horrific. Oh yeah. Coming across the border and you know US border patrol, like they're not nice dudes at the best of time. No, not at all. They're like, ah, do you have a good weekend? I have like a bike smashed in half on the roof. Go to pieces. Oh my god. Yeah, that's a gnarly one. That is rough. Man, it was bad. It was bad. Let's rewind out on that one into something a bit more positive. I'm sure you have your own career highlights, but for me, when you really sprung into my attention was as one of the lead mountain domestics for writer Hochtall in his year at Yeah, yeah, thanks. Yeah, you know, that was a pivotal moment in my career, one of many. That was pre-crash. Oh, and really quickly. So, but yes, I mean, while I was rehabbing, I just, I had two thoughts. One was I want to, even if I don't ever race again, I want a working leg and a working body because I got a wide ways to go. And I'm young. And Yeah. So I'm still a pro, except my training now is to rehab my leg and I'm still paid as a pro. So when was your contract? It was the end of that year actually. So I mean, I was getting paid by BMC, but I was on a contract year and things were looking good for renewal and then it just stopped cold turkey. But they were still paying me and They were supporting me and using all the medical resources and they're good doctors. So I rehabbed a couple hours a day at PT and did homework for five days a week, Monday through Friday, when I could get into the PT office. And I started the Tori Utah three and a half months later while walking with a cane, but racing the Tori Utah. And I finished it. And that was what convinced Trek to sign me was like, okay, you rode your bike for three weeks after not walking for three months. If you could finish the tour of Utah, we think you can come back. And so that was what saved my career was that dedication. But at the meantime, like you, I had a whole other business plan and I had to think really hard on what I want to do next. And I had started going down that rabbit hole for sure. Anyway, Jiro, that was amazing. That was 2012. Yeah, being part of that and taking the responsibility of that race, you know, as a team, and as the Americans taking it to the Italians and the Spaniards, you know.
Um, it's wild even thinking that that was eight years ago now, because I remember sitting on the couch like it was last summer watching that last still VL stage when Thomas DeGence was attacked. Yep. Thomas DeGence coming out party as the breakaway specialist of to beat all breakaway specialists and insane. It was, that was a wild one, you know, and he wasn't even in the fourth thought of our minds. It was all about a writer versus Perito and Basso and, and Scarpone. and it was all of a sudden it was DeGantt and it was, yeah, we had gone, we was stage 20, we'd gone over the Motorola, and the breakaway was up the road with Thomas DeGantt and Christian Vandevelle on our team. Christian was just sitting on, getting ready to, you know, you had to drop back or go for the stage win or whatever, because we had Ryder in the pink jersey there. Actually, he might have not been in the pink jersey. I can't remember if him and Perrito were leapfrogging each other by 10 seconds each way for the whole third week. I was pretty much the only Domestique to make it over the Mortarolo with the leaders. There was maybe 20 guys or something in the front group. the leaders were kind of looking at each other and I just went straight to the front for this big valley between the Motorola and the start of the Stelvio and I just started pulling full gas because DeGent was threatening riders position and I just I sold out into the bottom of the Stelvio and then you know we got on the radio and told Christian to come back and help chase this because DeGent was being Thomas DeGent and he would not come back like he was actually opening the gap and Christian came back and started to rotate with me and I told him like, dude, no, Stelvio is long. I'm already, like, I've already burned most of my matches. Like, let me just finish it out and go all into the bottom of this climate and then you take over. And then you, you know, and Christian was able to do, you know, probably half of the Stelvio or a third of it or whatever, however far he made it up that, you know, Casey Thomas back. And yeah, that was that was a big moment to try to save a race like that. And it worked and Ryder hung on. I think Perrito nipped him by a few seconds, but he got it in the stage 21 time trial the next day in Milan. But I was epic. I remember the team was so queued up and they were so into the battle. Like, you know, I swung off and the Stelvio, I mean, that's like an hour a half long climb or something. Like, oh, shit. And I, so I swing off and like, I mean, I was, that was my race done, like stage 20. And I have no more food, no more gels, to be a little can of Coke, you know, like a little like 150 milliliter can. And they race off to continue like the battle with Christian and Ryder and support and tactic and radio. And I had this little can of Coke to get me up the mountain. And I got like another one from a fan on the side of the road. And I finally get to the top. And it had gone well. And they had wished right away for podium and changing. And they had a helicopter hired to get us from the top of the Stelvio to Milan. Because it would be faster than we could recover better than like the five hour road trip through the serpentine Dolomite River. That's pretty cool. I went, you know, and so I get to the top though, and they're all focused on Ryder and low and behold, like I'm blown out, like I have no sugar left in my body, like I am zombie. And they're like, oh, you have doping control. Oh no. And so I, the team doctor was there waiting for me, and he gave me his puffy jacket, because it's on the top of the Stelvio, and it's like threatening to snow, right? And I had to sit in this tin can, like a frickin sardine, with no heat, no insulation, and no water in my system because I was so effed trying to pee. And then they waited for me, and they rushed me out, pee, you're holding us up, and I got straight on the chopper, and we had this surreal ride over the peaks of the Dolomites that I still remember. But I just got so sick just not being able to recover right And that night, I was able to put down half a plate of pasta if that. Did I need a Garmin Boys' duty urnals swatch nigga? Get to the chopper! Oh, totally. I was still so jazzed at that moment, but then it was just the next day I barely made time cut in the TT, I think. It was a shell of a person. That's horrific. But it's good for some band of elb. Christian still tells me that was the day I got here on my chest. I became a man. I was listening. I was talking to Christian Meyer last week and he was telling me after Christian Vandevelle retired, he brought us bike by a comb from the last race and didn't take his bike out of the bag for two years. I don't know about that. I thought Christian stayed pretty relevant. From what I remember him in George, do all these events together. I don't know. It sounded pretty crazy. There's definitely pros that do that, and there's pros that keep riding. It sounds horrible to me. At some point, he must have loved the sport. Yeah. I mean, he still does. You see how much he rides now, and he's a commentator. Yeah, actually, I've always got him on the podcast. So here he's really interested in it. Yeah, of course, he's great. Let's flick the lens forward. What's the moment where you thought, okay, let's give this gravel a crack. Spelch and Waffle ride? No, it wasn't like a, a relevation, just all of a sudden, let's do this, let's change everything. It was more of a slow awakening, I guess. It was very thought out and considered because Belgian Waffle Ride was the first. No, I did BWR last year, under my own impetus and trek agreeing to let me do some of these quote unquote alternative races. And that was the first one. And that was kind of like love at first sight. And that was what really set me down this path that changed my entire career. But I mean, I loved BWR, but then I hopped right back into the Torra, California, the Dauphiné. All right, and I did Dirty Canza after that as well. And I loved that just as much. Which was epic hurt. Yeah, it's just, it's totally its own thing. You can't even, it's kind of like Rubé. Like you just can't even, if someone does amazing at BWR, doesn't mean they're gonna do good at any other gravel race and vice versa.
You know, it's like, it's just its own freakishly crazy thing. And it's so cool just to experience it. It's one of those things where people just say, you can see the videos and all that and the grime and the grit pictures, but like until you're there feeling it. And the cool thing is everybody can do this, not just the pros. And like we have a bunch of coaching clients who went there and thought, and it's like the stories they have but they're changed men after. Yeah. But my focus was still very much world tour and you know, it was very direct from the track that, you know, it's like, yeah, like these are fun and they're good marketing but you're still a world tour racer. and my goals were for Utah and the Vuelta and all these things. So it was, I was still very focused much on, I mean, I guess my day job you could call it. And I did Leadville, which is a mountain bike race, but it is gravel. I mean, it's pretty tame, technical-wise, and it's long, it's endurance, it's the mass participation. It's the vibe that is gravel, right? right. And, and it just kind of became this moment where I realized just seeing the social media metrics, the attention around it that like, this is valuable and there's something here. I mean, this is crazy. But obviously I don't have access to your, I'm not coaching, I don't have access to your training numbers and stuff, but it would have looked to me like you still have a bit of time, like a good few years left at world tour level, like you weren't on the lane. No, not at all. And that's what a lot of people think is, you know, it's all these guys who come race, travel, they're on a retirement tour. Well, I think that's too fair about typically, because you know Ted King, I had Ted on a few weeks ago and yeah, Ted pretty much done it as a wind down. Ian Boswell, like I charted to him as well and he doesn't consider himself a pro I don't like this anymore. Yeah, and everyone's different. Everyone has their angle and what they're pursuing. And for me, it was very much like, no, I mean, I'm 32 right now. I'm in the prime of my career. I'm hitting my best numbers yet this year, even compared to last year, racing gravel. I just set a five minute watt PR for going for a local Strava Hill just to stay motivated yesterday. And give us someone else to see numbers. I did 470 watts for five minutes. Oh, well, I'm 41, 64 kilo. So you're doing the same power as me, and I'm like 79 kilos. That's so fun. And I, but I mean, these races are big enough and they're important enough that, you know, they deserve to have guys focus on them solely fast guys. I mean, I think that's honoring the discipline and it's honoring the race and the event. And I kind of had this moment when the world tour, except for EF education, wasn't ready to adapt to this alternative calendar, even though sponsors loved it, in Europe, the Euro world tour managers, I mean, world tour road in Europe is fine and healthy. Whereas in the US, sponsorships are drying up, races are stopping like a tour of California. Local domestic races are going away. And so the Euro managers are like, that's not my priority. I run a world tour team, it's world tour racing. And so it was kind of this moment where I couldn't find a team to let me do both. And it was either, okay, do I double down in Europe? Like you said, and get a few more years out of my career, doing another Tour de France, all this stuff, or do I go into this gravel scene into the unknown? And I kind of tested the waters with a few potential sponsors, some good relationships I had in the industry from my career and... Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. It's intermission time on the roadmap podcast. And I use the intermission time for us all to take the little bit of a Ahh, collective exhalation. I always love reading a book when I get to the end of a paragraph because I feel like you focus all the way to the end of the paragraph and then that punctuation gives me that little bit of an exhalation. This is your exhalation, but as I say this all the time, it is your time to head on over to patreon.com forward slash Anthony under skullwatch. That is the place you can buy me a beer, that is the place you can buy me a coffee, that's the place you can say thank you for facilitating this chat with Pete Stetner. This man has dropped a knowledge bombs all over the place on me. It's the place where you say you know what you should be paid for your work. So you can go there, you can make a small donation, what's a small donation for you but for me it's two things. One, it's validation that this podcast is moving in the right direction. But two, and most importantly, it's the lifeblood of this podcast that helps me cover the costs and helps me keep in this podcast, coming to you with these top guests a week after week. The link to the Patreon is in the description and I do appreciate your support. Now let's get back to the whole knowledge bombs from this repeat statement. There's a resounding yes so I just kind of... So how does it work? Because you know if you're at World Tour obviously you know trick or hand in you a paycheck once and you don't it's not like you're going out fishing for independent sponsors right how does that work when you decide to make the jump over to gravel it was a learning process I mean I do not have a degree in business and I am basically I mean I'm running a one-man team now I am I'm team manager logistics coordinator rider trainer mechanic mechanic no I I got a buddy who really helps me out. I'm still mechanically retarded because I am a World Tour roadie. And I mean, yeah, I went in one month from having like a couple good buddies, Sportful, Cliff Bar, and Canyon, they just had the belief in me and they're like, all right, like this makes sense. Let's do it. And then putting the rest of the pieces in the puzzle. I mean, all of a sudden I had my social media stats evaluated for influencer status, put an actual dollar amount to that, and a whole sponsorship power point deck, and links, and photos, and all these things, and really trying to show my value to sponsors and what I could give them, what could they get in return? And I mean, it was crazy. I mean, I was pulling for the first, I would say from November through February, I was pulling 7 a.m. to 6 p.m. days every day, including training, I would get back and be social posts and sponsorship contracts and all that.
So it's been. Without prior to much, I don't expect to tell us how much you're making, but is it a massive pay course for you to take on this new project? I'm able to still race my bike full time. I'm able to be a pro. So, you know, I mean, that was my whole thing talking to sponsors is, you know, I'm still very much a pro. I want to be a gravel pro and maybe be, I don't, I mean, Ted King, I guess, is a gravel pro even though he doesn't say it because, you know, his, I mean, he was like, look, I was just enjoying the bike and winding out. And me, I'm very much, I'm here to race, I love it. I'm not gonna sacrifice the fun around it. I'm not gonna be that reclusive world tour pro, but I can't say no to a beer. I think that's gravel rule number one, but at the same time, I'm here to perform and I care about it. So I am very proud. I love that as well, because I'm not sure if the same culture exists in the US, but definitely here in Ireland, when you go to a race and you see somebody, the question is always, oh, are you doing much? Like are you doing much training? And everyone will be, I was like, oh, no, no, no, like you know, cause you have mutual friends that are crotional like 30, 35 hour weeks. And you're like, they're saying, oh, I'm doing, but you're just owning it. You're going, no, no. I'm not here to like take part. Like I'm here to win. Yeah. And I think that's fresh for people to say that. I mean, one thing that I can't stand is a lot of guys just saying, oh, I'm just here to smell the roses and have a good time. It's like, well, no, I mean, this is a race. You have a number on your back. I noticed last year at these races, like me and the EF boys were like coming, basically thinking we were going to smell the roses and just like enjoy a different style of a bike ride race and all of a sudden like, oh, it's on. These guys are going for it. Like here we are, right, gloves are off now. You know, it is a race, no matter how you slice it. I mean, and I almost feel like it's a disservice to the race to not give your most. And it's a disservice to the people who don't get into these lottery systems. I mean, they turn away probably 10,000 people in the dirty cans of lottery who would give everything and train all year for it. So of course I'm going to try my hardest. But yeah, just to back up real quick, I mean, I, I, so I mean, setting up my sponsor portfolio, I mean, it was like, hey, you know, I just, I need some of these funds. So I can be a pro bike racer. Like I don't, and luckily I don't have to get a job at a cafe on the side. Like I am still focused on racing my bike. I'm able to make ends meet. And you see it as a sustainable model. Like on my end, it looks like, you know, I chatted to Ian and Ted, and before I even chatted to you, I picked out you in and Ted as three people who I think are really important in the future of cycling at the moment. Maybe more so than the other two guys realize, I'm not sure what your opinion is, but I think it's this move from elite sport to participatory sport, because we can't identify with the world or like, everyone looks the same. It's like watching Marvel superheroes. Like they're not real people. Yeah, I mean, and that was something that I was very adamant in talking with my sponsors is like, I'm going to take this seriously, but I mean, performance and embracing the two-wheel community are held on equal levels. And I mean, that's what drew me to this. So what I loved even more about the race was just the vibe and the fun around these events. I mean, that is what we all love for most of us love about cycling in the first place. I mean, it's having the beer with your buds after the ride is just as good as the ride, reliving it, you know? And I mean, sorry, I forgot where you're going. What was the original question? Don't worry, I do not all the time. Go on tangents. Actually, what I wanted to dive into is what's your training looking like at the moment and what alterations will be made in your training, now versus when you were a World Tour? Oh, no, but let me continue. I agree with you. Go for it. No, but I think this is, and that's the whole thing about gravel, is it's inclusive. Everyone can do it. It is participatory. You and I are doing the same course and feeling the same feelings, whether or not it takes you three hours more than me. Like we get to the finish line and we can identify with that. And for other pros who want to follow this template that I've started on my side, please do. This is not an exclusive thing. I don't wanna be the only or one of the few gravel pros. like there's more room at the table for this as long as you come with the right attitude and the right mindset. But you know what? I hope it does. It's different as well. I think it's not gonna be inclusive enough because it's gonna be so personality driven. Like, you're a big person. I think that's important. It's a big personality. But like you're not gonna get one of the Kazakh dudes coming over into this because they're just language barrier. Well, and they don't fit with it because I mean, you have to appreciate the communal side of cycling and the same aspect. I mean, I think Ted is even more adamant than I am, but we don't want this becoming road racing off road. You know, like we don't want, you know, everyone was scared about the pros ruining gravel last year. Are we gonna come with our team buses and our massage therapists and all that? And no, I mean, we're just, we're dudes who happen to pedal bike a little bit faster. We're not saving the world or anything, but we just wanna enjoy it like everybody else. And I think there's value in certain brands can identify with that. And World Tour Racing is good and it's, I mean, the Tour de France is the pinnacle. But it's only, it's a one-sided, pro-road racing is, it is only about speed and the racing and the pure sporting side of it. It's just a different angle completely. How does the new Wahoo Frontiers team, how does that sit in with the kind of, you know, I think the world tour, I think team, I think gravel, I think individual. Now I think Wahoo Frontiers, I think I'm confused.
It's a weird message and they've got something cool going on. It is not a team. The Wahoo Frontiers is a group of athletes, I would call it more of a collective. And we're all pushing into a new frontier of the sport, of our career, everything like that. You know, you got myself and Ian leaving the world tour road racing. Colin Strickland is the white knight of gravel at the moment. I mean, Heather Jackson is one of the best triathletes in the world and she's dabbling in gravel and she shreds. And Amity and Heather, sorry, Amity and Sarah Sturm are also, they're like, they're coming up and they come from cyclocross and mass rides. So it is the new frontier. but we're not teammates. We're more of like frenemies, I guess. I mean, we're racing. I'm going to race against Ian and Colin at every race. And we're going to go like gloves off. Here we go. But at the same time, in the gravel spirit, if Ian's sitting on the side of the road with a flat tire, I come by a CO2 may just fall out of my pocket. I'm I'm not going to stop and change his tire for him, but. Look at my. So let me pitch you a little technical here. So it's you in Colin are coming in the road in the Belgian wealth of right in a group of four with 10 King. Are you going to give him the all shaken bake? Is the deal going to be done or is it going to be every man for himself? It's going to be every man for himself. And that's what I love about gravel right now. At least I hope unless I'm the fourth man right now, but it's a very possibility because I'm the guy who apparently is ruining gravel. But no, it's gentleman's racing. That's what I really like. I mean, everyone's taking their pull until they blow. It's honorable racing. There's no sitting on backstabbing tactics. What I love about gravel is just the lack of regulation. When I think about, you know, Lachlan Martin and Alex Hales coming down from World Tour. When I think world horror, I think sterile, I think about your seat posts the right distance behind the bottom bracket. I think rules. When I think gravel, I think of me as a kid, my dad's a mechanic, and I'm making bikes with two different size wheels, racing on the bars on mountain bikes. Then you have the whole thing with aerobars. They're allowed, which I think is cool because there's no rules. But then there seems to be a revolt around them where you're you're being almost, you know, communally ostracized for you, isn't it? Where are you sitting on that debate? Yeah, well, two things. You know, the arrow bars is one thing. I'll touch on that in a second. No, one of the golden rules in gravel is you run what you're brought, meaning, you know, if you want to be in a freaking time trial skin suit in an arrow helmet and freaking color coordinated socks, great, you do that. If you want to ride in a football jersey, hell yeah, good on you. You're out there. And that's what's really cool and inviting about it. And I think that's why gravels gain so much popularity is because if you think of your entry into the sport, let's say you're going to enter through road racing. Your first experience is going to be a category five parking lot criteria. It's going to be dangerous. You probably are going to end up with some road rash and it's going to feel a leadist. your socks aren't gonna match your shoes and all that, whatever. There's so much elitism in road racing. And then mountain biking, I mean, you need actual skills, so like rip trail, otherwise you're gonna get hurt. I mean, that's a whole nother technical side of things. And gravel is, it's exercise, it's getting out there, it's getting away from traffic, it's fully inclusive. So I think this has the potential to be the fastest growing side of the sport because of that. And aero bars. Yeah, there was a big shitstorm last year around Dirty Canza because of it. But I'm all forum. I mean, it's you do you. And Jeff Kabush and Ted King were very vocal about it for safety aspect. And it's not racing, or you're focusing too much on the racing, but look, like the safety aspect, I get it. I mean, but it's just about self-policing. What's about to say, is that not coming out to avoid or discretion then? Like your next project. I had arrow bars on my bike, but I didn't sit on them in the middle of the group. I didn't touch them for the first three hours of the race. But, and if I saw someone in the group doing it, I'd be like, hey dude, like get out of the arrow bars in the middle of the pack. Like that's just not cool and it's dangerous. It's just about talking about it, but at the same time, like if it's allowed by the organizer, and I need to even go further because apparently in gravel, they're not called aero bars, they're called comfort bars, because in some time in 10 hours in the windy Flint Hills of Kansas, you're gonna be on your own, you're gonna be pedaling in the same position, hour after hour, it's really nice to unweight your wrist, change your hip position a little bit, all of that. So they're called comfort bars, first of all. I think Ted said like the general rule that it's governed in the bunch. Do you call it a palatine, a bunch in gravel or is it? There's no rule. We call it a gang in the gang of gravel. So it's just don't be lame. And that's the thing he said, Aerobars fell on her. He just feels like, come on, don't be lame. Yeah. But at the same time, like Ted was talking about this last year and my teammate Kiel actually just put him in his place pretty easily. He just sent Ted a picture of Ted winning Dirty Cans of the year before with arrow bars on his bike. OK. I mean, yes, I don't care if it's lame. Like, if they're faster and they're allowed, I'm going to use them. I'm going to use them in a responsible way. And I don't want to be guilt-tripped into not running what I want to run. I feel like that's not the point. And I feel like if guys can't speak for the masses, I mean, that's the antithesis of this. Will the organizers impose rules around this stuff? Because I know it's like... It doesn't do. Some do. It's only right now that's dirty cans mid-self, maybe a few others that allow arrow bars. Each race has their own regulations. So I'm happy to not use them if they're not allowed. I don't care. But you know, for something like dirty cans, I think they're an advantage. So I will use them if I can. Yeah, I've never used them on gravel. So I'm looking forward to getting a set and checking them out.
Is there much speed difference? I assume it's not. I assume it's not equivalent to like, row, point, two, two people. No, it's not like a, and you're more upright. So it's more like a triathlete position where you can kind of sit in that position for hour after hour. You know, you gotta be smart about it. You know, you gotta keep your head up and watch for potholes and rough stuff and out of them all day long. But it's just, like I said, it's comfort. You just, it's just nice to hunker down, take a bit more aerodynamics off weight your wrists a little bit. Have you tested them in the wind tunnel Or will you test them in the wind tunnel? No, I'm not in a wind tunnel with the gravel bike. It's a go there. You have so much other, maybe. Yeah, maybe. It depends on how much money is going to end up in the sport. Like I said, I don't think we want it to become road racing off road. But it's not fine line, isn't it? Because we don't want it to become off road racing, like World Tour. But it would be cool if there was enough money around it to sustain an ecosystem of pro riders. because let's face it, we love watching as fans, the best writers kicking shit out of each other at the front of the race. But if the best writers have to work in a cafe part time to do it, maybe I'm thinking of a hypothetical person that wants to come across the road race in next season, but maybe doesn't have the business savvy head on them that you had. Like, would they be able to navigate the same deals that you've done this year? Probably not. I mean, this is, right now this is, you have to be very entrepreneurial. I mean, you are, I'm a privateer and I am a one man team. And there's, I mean, sometimes, and the training is secondary to the business. I mean, I am fitting, oh, okay, today I don't have a podcast and social media posts and a call with a potential project with a sponsor, I can get in five or six hours. Oh, today is slammed. I'm gonna, it's not about building out the blocks perfectly for pure speed. But that's what World Tour Road is and was. And there's guys who are totally happy and they want to sit on top of the mountain in the hotel room and watch Netflix and just think about going fast on the bike. And I don't say this in a negative way, but the selfish pursuit of speed and bodily perfection. That's what World Tour Road Racing is. And I played that game for my whole career And it's so hard and I have the utmost respect for those guys, but that's not what gravel is. I mean, there's a lot more moving parts. And it's a lot more work, longer days, I would say. But it's also a lot more validating because they're my relationships, my sponsors, I'm the boss. It's basically my company, right? And I think anyone can relate to leaving their workplace and starting their own company. I mean, that's the dream. And look, it sounds like you're running a very similar day than I'm running with running a coaching company where you're looking to get strategic brand partnerships, you're looking at social media awareness, running paid advertising maybe even. Yeah, exactly. All of that, yeah. Let's have a talk about your training. Well, circle back to that one. I love doing that on the podcast. I just drop an idea and we circle back to it sometimes weeks later. In this case, we got back to it a bit sooner. What's your training look like? I still have my coach. I mean, we have a very good relationship. We talk about family and baking bread or whatever, more than training sometimes. But it's, I mean, I realize that I am not gonna have these world tour stage races for the fitness bump anymore. Like, I mean, there's nothing like the tour down under in January to rip you into shape. And you can't replicate that. So when I made this decision, I actually went back to my coach Scott and I just said, look, Scott, I need to, like, I'm going to need you more than ever, actually, because I'm going to have to train more than ever. With that said, so I mean, I'm still doing training, not right now with the virus. Right now it's mental health writing and going for a Strava or a Zwift race or whatever peaks your interest on the day, right? Yeah. Maintenance. staying fit when you do have an objective that you can touch then you turn it on again and I'll call Scott but But I mean until the virus. Yeah, I mean I've been doing my normal road intervals all of that just with a bit more flexibility thrown in More adventure rides than normal. I mean now it's my job to Get off road away from from the the interval button on the climbs too and like to narrow to the osh for anyone who's in their numbers listen, is it possible for you to replicate your chronic training loads now as a supportive athlete? Yes, yes. I mean, my little training peak CTL graph was as higher actually than it was last year. I mean, I didn't have the same world toward depth, but I'm also, I'm not a stage racer anymore. Most of these are very much one day races. So I'm a one day racer. So I'm focused not so much on four days, four days, four days, three, four day blocks in a row, and then a rest day. I'll maybe do two or even one day, just massive. And then I'll take a rest day. I'm carrying an extra kilo of beer belly because you can't say no to beer in gravel. That's bad form. And I love beer. That's my second passion. And so I mean, there's a few subtle differences, but the numbers, and especially just not the international traveling. I mean, going to Australia, going to Abu Dhabi, going to Jirona, like the chronic jet lag, and missing those training days from traveling and going to races. That affects your overall fitness as well, whereas I could just build, build, build, build, which was nice. You strike me as a writer and definitely from chatting to some people before I got on about you. You were a guy who always showed up in shape and that was one of your things. And I know a lot of our listeners, Dias is a big, like we were too, for anyone listening, I suppose, nearly the world tour equation is your power and your waste or two sides of a coin. You can't show up, we go power and shit waste or vice versa. Dias is something that I know a lot of listeners struggle with. Is there any tips you'd give people on maintaining waste or losing waste? Yeah. You know, there's all these diet fads. I mean, there's always a new hot thing. Don't buy into it.
I mean, it's basic. I mean, at the end of the day, calories burned versus calories consumed. If one is higher than the other, you're going to gain or lose weight. Very basic addition subtraction. And then you can get into the quality of the calorie and all that. I mean, yeah, if I know I want to have a nice IPA after my ride today, I could ride an extra half an hour and make sure there's another 300 calories burned or whatever to consume it. I mean, it's really that simple. And I mean, some of the best advice I ever got was from Jonathan Votters actually about diet. And it was just about everything, not just diet, but it pertains to diet just being everything in moderation, even moderation. So, you know, like, I mean, yeah, I mean, enjoy a little bit of fries or enjoy the beer. Don't go full ham, just keep it at one beer, right? And, you know, but there are also days, and like the holiday, for example, like, hell yeah, binge, like go all in and it makes you hungrier to do it right later. I mean, you need that mental release too. So that's the way that I look at it. I'm actually quite relaxed about it. It's just the more you exercise, the more you can eat. And honestly, I love eating. So I just try to exercise more. Have you tried any stuff like intermittent fasting, playing around with ketones? I've played with all that stuff. I mean, there might be something but to do it really right, I mean, you've got to really do it right. And even then, you're not sure it's going to work out. I mean, yeah, to do the ketone thing right, I mean, you need to do your team's sky style camp. And you should not be working and doing all these other normal person activities. And you should be doing your pre-breakfast ride and then timing your consumption at that and keeping it going for weeks on end to kick in that fat burning and get your body used to that. And it's like, it's just why, especially in gravel or for some of your coaching clients, like it's not your job to be like that. I mean, you are not trying to do the Tour de France and get that last 1%. Like that's not the point. Well, I think that's it. You hit the nail on the head there. It's that last 1%. Like I talk to coaching clients all the time. They come along to me with these like, oh, I'm thinking of using boy carbs. So I was like, look, this is the 1% you're after. Like, just don't have fucking 10 beers on a Wednesday night. Like you're not the dude who needs to look for this every like tiny micro game. Yeah. No. Um, and a happy racer is a fast racer. That's the thing that I always found. That was what worked for me. And if I, I, it, and that's, that's why I always showed up fit to races is because I, I marched the beat of my own drum a bit and I would tell the team, Hey, I'm going back home to California for these two weeks, even though I'm going to deal with jet lag because I'm going to be on my roads with my family and my food. And I know I come back better than that, whereas if I sit on my own in Europe, I go stir crazy. And as long as you're happy and you're ripping, the legs will follow the head. Is there any performance aids you're using for recovery or extra fitness at the moment and gravel like using space boots CBD oils anything I am sponsored by Floyd's a leadville and I'm a believer in CBD. I think it helps for sleeping It's not gravel specific by any means I used it in the world to last year I think it's better than Western medicine and sleeping pills which are rife in the pro peloton. I I have a pair of the Normatec boots for my pro days and if I'm here training hard at home I'm yeah, I mean I hop in the boots while I'm watching HBO at night. I Mean I'm still very much training the best I can it's just it's just it's just it's not the The end all be all like I mean I'm just balancing life a lot more with it Which is a lot more rewarding and I think it'll give me a lot more longevity in the sport Have you played with a cold therapy, heat therapy, anything like that? I mean, all my pro career. Yeah, I mean, I've tried all those hacks. I'm not doing it as much right now. Yeah, you know, as far as supplements for your coaching clients directly, the one supplement that I really felt made a difference that wasn't just snake oil. And even ketones are still in that snake oil realm right now, right? Like, we don't really know. It seems to work for some and not others. The one thing that I really felt helped and is fully legal was beta alanine. I still use that training. I think that's nice. It's basically just a bit of a lactic buffer. Just makes your legs hurt a little bit less. It kind of makes you feel like just unscrawled. I love your skin. If you take too much of it. You got to find that line, of course. Tell me your speed. I heard you speak in, I think it was a couple of seasons ago about your Olympic ambitions and that you would love to get to the Olympics. Is that something you're completely writing off now and if so is this hard-pilled swallow? Yeah, the Olympics, another Tour de France, I mean there was, I had, I still had goals in the World Tour. I really do, and I did. But it just became a question of, you know, I have more goals and desire and objectives in this new greener pasture, or do I want to keep pursuing this kind of checklist in road. And for me, just gravel decisions outweighed the pro-road decisions in multiple angles. But I mean, yeah, there's things I wish I could have done. I don't know, man, maybe if they keep delaying and postponing due to this virus, gravel will become an official Olympic discipline. I was thinking that, like, how far off that are we? I don't think, I mean, the UCI doesn't even have a grasp on gravel yet. You need to get comfortable. Yeah, the whole Olympic thing, man, I really wanted to do it. I would have loved to. It's just so political. realize once you start going for it and it's just crazy and cycling how there's this rule where you have to use the same athlete for both disciplines meaning you have to use the same rider for the road and the TT makes no sense do you see Usain Bolt having to run the marathon so he can do the 100 meter sprint what the hell like that we have down Ireland as well like yeah the same selection problem and that's it's insane like us obviously we've done Martin who would be one of the favourites gone into.
Exactly. He's not going to be able to TT. What's, do you say, Ryan Mullen? Because he can TT, but he's not going to do as well in the road race and support Dan. It's just like, it's crazy. That's exactly. Yep. Same conundrum here. But before we finish up, Pete, I know you're basically a small business. It's like you're saying. What's the kind of products you'd like to give a shout out to and where's the best place people can follow along on your journey? The best place is my Instagram and my Twitter. I'm working on getting a fancy website going, but that requires extra help. I'm not an IT guy. So at P. Stettna on the Instagram, Peter Stettna fully spelled out on the Twitter. Instagram is probably the best one. That's where I focus more on. And I've got a great group of companies behind me that value the same things I value and I can text them directly and talk about things. So that's Canyon Bicycles, very fitting with disruptive, changing the game, not following the normal path. Shimano, tipped tail, shoes, glasses, helmets, the best of the best, especially when gravel and tires with IRC, same thing. Just, you know, you need just the right stuff because these events are so fricking hard to finish. I mean, people are really hypersensitive to what they're running to make sure they have the best chance at making it to the finish line of decay. And Tarr seems to be the question that you get over and over again. I'm with IRC and they're a lot of fun because they actually own the rubber factory in Japan. So they can make what we're making some cool stuff. I mean, we're really trying to innovate right now. So it's a very rewarding relationship. And just they're coming back strong. They have a new vigor in cycling again. Wahoo GPS. Actually, you know, I meant to ask you this. It's a good little segue for asking you. It almost sounds staged. And I'm not sure how honest an answer you're going to give me here. It's like asking the barber if we need a hair call. I have a garment bounced off when I was out trying. a few weeks ago, I went into the sea shock horror. And so now I need to, I've had a full YouTube video about this. I mounted a full scale search for my garment in the sea. It was epic. And now I'm like, oh, would I go with a Wahoo? Would I go? I've always used garment. And I'm like, let's have a little look. Should I go with the Wahoo? I think so. I'm really enjoying it. The battery life on the Rome is... The Rome's a big one? Yeah, yeah, that's their gravel adventure one. I mean, it's a bigger screen for seeing the map. A lot of these gravel risks are self-navigation and the battery life. I mean, I can do a freaking 20-hour block without charging it. No problem. That's pretty cool. So that's nice. And then Cliff Barr is probably my first sponsor. You know, and they're one of my big dogs for partnership and just the holistic lifestyle, the values, the company values, Stumptown coffee, really good coffee. I'm a bit of a coffee snob these days. Athletic brewing is actually non-alcoholic beer. And there's a lot of people not get, but just this is the company that is changing the game with in terms of the non-alcoholic perception. alcoholic perception their IPA is voted one of the best 50 beers in the US yeah You're a bit of a beer no sure saying that's kind of your second question and but you know and sometimes there's there's a time In a place for the full alcohol, but there's also a time in a place for you know Being being Regined and you know for those people who don't want to we want to knock back 10 beers like try the athletic brewing I mean you're gonna feel like you're having your normal beer and it's gonna be a hundred calories and no alcohol in it Look, I'm saying to offer I'm at the moment. I'm writing the tandem with a buddy of mine trying to qualify for Tokyo on the tandem My buddy on the back is visually impaired obviously But when he lost his eyes like he went gangbusters on the beer and it became a real problem for him So he hasn't been able to drink since I'm definitely gonna have to get him a case it is not Like stuff and being an a I don't know if they ship in Europe yet But being an a you know they ship direct to your doorstep you don't have to be 21 or 18 for you guys. And then sportful. Another early sponsor who stepped in with me from the beginning and they're fun and collaborative and we're tight. So sweet, sweet. Pete, it has been a blast. It has been a pleasure. Hopefully I'll get you back on the podcast again at some stage if we ever get some gravel racing back on the calendar. Sounds good. Thanks for having me. I got to go adventure ride now. Cheers my brain back on the road bike because that's gravel. That's the way to talk. Thanks mate. Alright, talk to you soon. That's it ladies and gentlemen. But please do not disembark the aircraft until we have taxied and we are fully at the gate. Before you head on off, before you run out the door, before you go anywhere, let me just remind you the two ways I keep this podcast coming to you every single week. on over to our roadman merch store, the link is in the description down below, pick yourself up some swag, pick up some swag for a friend, pick up some swag for a competition, pick up some swag. That's really what I'm saying here, just go and get yourself some swag because it's cool as shit and you're gonna look like the dogs bollocks walking around in your roadman while you were cycling before it was cool, t-shirt or hoodie. Boom, can't wait to have mine. Secondly, head on over to patreon.com if you haven't already and help me keep creative control of this podcast. Help keep it away from the big brands, the big businesses. Help me quench my thirst with a point of beer. Head on over to patreon.com forward slash Anthony underscore waltz and I'm going to chat to you next Wednesday. It's been a pleasure. Talk to you soon. you
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