Clare's mission is to better understand how breathwork influences the mind, voice, body and spirit; she has uncovered specialist ways to not only enhance her own performance but her way of living
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Rowman today, I'm gonna speak with Claire Walsh. Let's cue that intro! The big question is this. How do we use cycling as a tool to improve our health, our happiness, and our long-chevages? That is the question on this podcast will give you the answers. My name is Anthony Walsh, and welcome to the Rowman Podcast. Roadman, it's Wednesday, welcome back to another Roadman Cyclone podcast. I'm bringing this one to you from beautiful tropical Columbia where I'm exploring around. On my boy Seagull, seeing the good spots for you guys to check out and generally just getting through a little bit of rest in our relaxation but also equal parts work. Today I've got a super interview which is from Clearwallch on the art of breeding. Breeding is so integral and James Nester has really popularized this in the last sort of seven or eight months with his brilliant book, Breed, but it's just so integral to everything we do as an endurance athlete. Mastering the breast, the transfer of oxygen into the blood and it's been the core of sort of the EPO crisis was around transport of oxygen in the blood but if we can naturally increase those markers were in a win win and today Clearwall speaks to us about some of the ways we can do that. Before I dive into it, I want to give you a reminder heading into 2021 that the podcast needs your support now more than ever. It's over on patreon.com forward slash Anthony underscore watch and I've elected so far I'm not to bring on a podcast sponsor and I have this brilliant, maybe slightly optimistic utopian view that we can self-fund this podcast at least to a point and we don't have to give away creative control. So many times I'm getting DMs over on Instagram from guy saying, oh can you reach out to Sonta, it would be great to have them on the podcast. And I'm able to do that, I'm able to ask them the questions I want. And I'm able to dive into it and not put a filter on course and I'm just able to be myself. Some of that does change depending on the sponsor you get in. So I'm super, super cautious about what sponsors would get in. I'm shutting down negotiations on that super early if I feel like it's not going to be able to maintain the integrity of the podcast. But with that being the positive side of it, the negative side of it is it's still entirely funded from user contributions and out of my pockets. And I'd obviously prefer to not lose cash every single week. So if you can dig into your pocket and buy me the price of a beer, just once a month, if you're getting some value from the podcast, you can do that over on Patreon and it really helps the podcast move forward. So let's get in chat with Claire before I introduce her just a little bit of background about her. Claire has dedicated her life to the study of breeding. She had a background in theater and she was always curious about movement, but it's her mission to better understand breath work and how it influences the mind, the voice, the body and the spirit. She's even uncovered specialist ways to not only enhance her own performance but to improve the way others live, how she lives and her methods have informed teachers in the art of freediving around the world. She has some crazy long breath holes, she's an international competitor, she's a record holder and she's just a really nice girl to chat with. Welcome to the roadmap podcast, Claire Walsh. Thank you so much for being on. Greetings from Egypt. Yes, you're in Egypt at the moment. Suppose that's the best place for us to start. What's going on in Egypt or what's bringing you there? Well, apparently there's no COVID in Egypt, which is terrific. It's quite literally head in the sand. Yes, I headed out at the start of October. Obviously numbers were going up and there was talk of heavier restrictions. So I liked it. And I had a lot of training and obviously competitions and everything canceled for the throughout the year. So this seemed like a bit of an opportunity to get some some depth training done. So it's been incredible. I suppose for five weeks, but my flights have been canceled all the way along. So I've ended up being here for nine. Is Egypt kind of a, you know, our spot is, we head off to Jaroni in Spain or New York, I for cyclists. Is Egypt that spot for diving? Absolutely. So the blue hole in Daha, which is in Sinai, is well, obviously locals laugh when we use this phrase, but it's the Mecca. So just off the shore it's maybe a 5, 10 meter swim off shore and you get boom, 92 meters depth. And it's incredible. So yeah, it's the mecca. I'm really tired.
I went out on a bike ride last year. I was actually abroad I think and we used this Strava, it's this tracking GPS tracking software and sort of a social element to it. I went out on a ride and I rode for 197 kilometers and I taught you the ride because when you're done you're done. And it freaked so many people out that I didn't bother going to the round 200 kilometer mark. So when I was looking at your breath hold record of five minutes and 59 seconds, how OCD are you about making that six minutes or does it kill care? It kills me. Yeah, and it's funny because my depth, personal best is 59 meters. I see that. I actually have that on my notes as well. I was like, I wonder is this... You know, you get in a bike race and we're going to get into the mental component because there's a huge mental component to what you do. But in a bike race, you can race for, you know, six hours and you can lose by a centimeter. And that's not physical. That's mental. How much of the 559 do you think is mental versus physical? So in static Breckhold, which is what you're referring to in 559, no, it's not mental and becomes. So you get these things called contractions. They're really uncomfortable. And I get mine quite early. I get mine in around the two minute mark, which means I have almost four minutes of contractions, guys, like I can put up with. So that one second is more about hypoxic threshold. So what's a contraction? Oh, a little up. So basically your body goes to do the movement of breathing. So your rib cage expands, long as trying to expand, but no air comes in. So it kind of looks like an internal hiccup to be dead honest with you. It's like your intercassals are contracting your diaphragm moves up underneath your rib cage. So if you don't have flexibility in your chest, it can be really uncomfortable. And also if you tense yourself and try to resist it, it just gets incredibly comfortable. If you soften as much as you can and just kind of ride the wave a little bit more, they're absolutely bearable. And I never noticed them during depth at all. So to rewind for someone that's not listening to this, because obviously I'm not hugely into diving, but I'm really into breath work, of research you obviously for the podcast so I know the difference between static is, I suppose David Blaine's record for someone mainstream, is that a static example you just sit and basically submerge? Yes, yes, yes, so static is what it says in the 10, it's lying still in the water airway so might the nose submerged, so it's a pool discipline, so there are three pool disciplines and static is one of them. So that's mainly in contrast to deep dive. Yes, so that there's four depth disciplines and they're measured obviously in meters below the surface of the water. And is David Blaine a naughty, bad word in breath-hole circles or is it a... I don't think he would be particularly associated with freediving. I'm not 100% sure did he take pure oxygen before the dive, before his breath holds. You know what I listened to was podcast with Joe Rogan. It's really fascinating. I don't think he took oxygen before it, but I don't think he was bound by probably some of the same. I could be open to the correction. Maybe I'm completely lambasted and would abuse here, but I don't think he was probably open to the same rigorous standards that you use to hold yourself. I think maybe he's taken and EPO and things like that pre-zive. Yeah. And like obviously there will be quite strict standards, simply because we do it in water. And I don't know, his was underwater, wasn't he? He was, yeah, underwater. I can't remember what he had done for you. It was crazy dive. Yeah, like the male world record is 13 minutes, 13 minutes six or something. And female world record is 902. So anything beyond that, And the biggest world record is 22 minutes on that Danish guy called Stig. And he took... So the 22 minutes was on pure oxygen before the bus. Okay, so David Blaine has the Guinness World Record for Bread Holding in 17 minutes for a second, setting a world record for oxygen-assisted static apnea. Does that make sense? Yes. So they can pure oxygen beforehand. Okay, and does that make a difference? Yeah, absolutely. Should just oxygenate and the crap out of your blood. Yeah. So to rewind because I got lost in my own indulging my David Blaine. Be fair, I've done quite a few interviews and podcasts. That's the first David Blaine rabbit hole I've gone down. So actually we enjoyed that. But yeah, do you know what? It's totally because I was watching his crazy staunter where he was holding onto these arable ones recently.
And I'm just like, this lad is just tapped. And then I went down that route, David Blaine, rabbit hole and seen he had that crazy breast hold. And it was long before we agreed to talk. Yeah, I think there's a 22 minute or somewhere, maybe didn't guess. But ever ratified or whoever the word is. But I think there's a 22 minute record out there. That's the same. That's oxygen assisted. So talk me through how you're 559. How do you go about from being a normal person to someone who can hold their breath for 5 minutes at 59? Because often in any sports, it's we see the Tippity iceberg. We see these amazing events. And I like to differentiate events from process because any event is normally preceded by a crazy process that nobody sees. is that process of getting ready for that sort of event? You see, the thing is, particularly when I talk to people at home, and a lot of people focus on the 559s, the time element of freediving, whereas that's a discipline I seldom train for. That's not where my passion is, all my time, and any time I'm yearning to get in the water, it's always about death. So when I've done a 559, it's usually, I've spent a lot of time doing depth. I'll have been so to do that, I'll have been doing my breathing techniques, working a lot on relaxation, doing meditation. Obviously, we've had a good baseline fitness. And then when it comes to trying, you know, one of the days when you go, Fek, it'll go for a static. And he gets set up and you get your coach. And the best, the best way to approach is without expectation. Is there a difference on the body and a static dive and a static breath hold and a deep dive? Like obviously, there's an extra oxygen element, but is there is the water put an extra pressure on you as you go deeper as well? Usually, you know, depth diving or any sort of depth training takes a massive toll on the body as well as mentally. And because you're dealing with whatever, how many atmospheres of pressure And then you have a whole other element of being able to equalize your ears. Yeah, to me, it's a far more compound discipline, depth. There's a lot more to deal with. And static is, you know, it's really, really challenging. But depth, yeah, there's a far bigger toll on the body, I think, doing depth, I think. And when you're doing, let's focus on the depth because I feel like the depth I'm from me is just so exciting. Like that when I watched the David Blaine static one, I'm like, you know, it could be a kid in the bathtub putting his head on the water. There's nothing that exciting about it. I know there's elements of blacking out and stuff, but it's like the idea that you can dive 60 meters. Like, you know, anyone that's run a 100 meter race, like 60 meters is a long, long way down. Is there a reference point I'm trying to think around Ireland? So Liberty Hall and Dublin. That's 60 metres. So I think from the top, I think I looked it up or someone looked it up for me is I think around 59.4 metres, I think from the top Liberty Hall down to the ground and back up again on one breath. And for any non-Irish viewers that's our tallest building in Dublin. So yeah that gives some perspective to it. So as you're going on this 60 meter dive, are you, is there a mental process you're going through? Do you have a mental sequence that you bring yourself through and is it the same every time? You usually know it's never the same. And actually today I did a PB, I did a personal best and knowing that we'd be chatting this evening, I was thinking about it for my dive. So I've switched disciplines at the moment. So that 59 meters is called free immersion. And that involves you pulling down on a rope. Okay. So you're telling yourself down on a rope. It's really, it's terrific. It's quite serene. And then the discipline I've been working on is called bifins. So it's kicking down with my long set of fins. Amazing. So there's two of them obviously. So bifins. And it's a little bit more effort. I did a personal best in that today. But it was really funny because I suppose I was just aware of my mindset before it, and I really wasn't feeling it. Well, whatsoever. And only for, I don't wanna, I never wanna cancel a dive session because I don't wanna do that to my buddy. I wouldn't have gone this morning. So when I got into the water, I was just, do you know what? I heard myself already making the excuses for not making the dive. I heard myself say, nah, just not feeling it.
I didn't sleep great last night. And I'm getting it cold. And I just heard this big long list. So, you know, I'm breathing off, but I'm doing my preparation. I have my face in the water, my snorkel in my mouth. And I just had to have a little bit of a worry about myself. Just absolutely no point going into the dive with that mindset. What was the chat with yourself? So I just said, like, exactly, like, Claire, look where you are. So open my eyes and below me, the blue hole is absolutely incredible. But the light was catching bits of the coral, all the different color blues below me. It's expanding 93 meters underneath me. That in itself makes you gasp. So first was just kind of go out here, check in with yourself girl. Look where you are and look how lucky you are to be there. That was a kind of a nice grounding in the way. It was just a thing with an athlete as well. And I think the people that aren't athletes, they assume it's this amazing glamorous life. And you always are in the perfect mindset to do the thing you love doing all the time. But when you step out of it, that's actually brilliant interview I have from one of the guys on the summit, his name's Jerry Redmond, and his brand is Prison2Pro. Briefly, he was a professional soccer player, and then his father went to jail. and he ended up getting embroiled in gang lands, rose quite high up gang lands. And before we go on to jail, check themself and said, look, your father's been in jail, your grandfather's been in jail, you've just had a child, you need to change your life. And he changes life around, he became a professional triathletes. But he was talking about the similarities between athletics and where everyone wants to be a pro-athlete until they figure out what's involved in being a pro-athlete. And he had like my favorite line from the entire summit so far. He said, everyone wants to be a gangster until it's time to be a gangster. That feels like exactly like what you were going through today. Yeah, exactly. It's like, oh, gosh, I really actually have to go and do it. And but I've worked as a puppeteer in another part of my life. And so I would have been a big Jim Henson fan on the Red, his biography a couple of years ago, actually on the diving trip. He came up with the phrase that I try and bring into my training whether it's whether I'm peaking or whether it's just creating base training But he he used a phrase called playful curiosity I said okay, so you might not make the targets, but you also might so with this kind of kind of slippery mindset You're not fully in the zone. Let's see with playful curiosity. How far you can go. I love that Yeah, so and as a result it's absolutely gorgeous dying if I really enjoyed it and I did three meters shallower yesterday and that was shy. That was just like come on get going you know kind of like gritting, gritting teeth just head down, you know such an unpleasant dive in comparison. So I know if I'm warming up for like I do some indoor track events and it's a four kilometer pursuit and it's basically four kilometers as hard as you can go. So for anyone that hasn't done that type of event, I'd compare it to almost someone holding your head under water and you're just struggling for that breath. You just can't get the breath in your body is just building toxins to the point where it just wants to completely crunch to a halt. But and you're in it indoors, crowds are there, you know, there's a big build up to this event, but you're trying to stay so calm and just like pistons, complete efficiency, no wasted energy. But for that event, I go I try to go through the same mental process. Like I finish my warm up at the same time. I listen to the same songs. I have the same mantras I repeat to myself. Do you have like a process pre-dive? It's a really good question and something, I was chatting right over my celebration cake this afternoon. You know, I am a creature of habit and I would have a tendency to do the same. Like there's a certain set of songs that I always listen to. And then it can get quite maybe not superstitious, but you know, as you know, I put on my dive computer first, next is my way belt, next is my neck weight, and it becoming quite methodical and ritualistic. But I'm trying to stay out of that because we dive in the ocean. And that is one thing that will never be the same from day to day. So you can't get too attached to routine.
Obviously, you know, there are certain things that I will do that are within my control, but I'm trying to just be a little bit softer in terms of how I approach a dive. Having said that, I will always, you know, reach for the rope with my right hand, thumb down, you know, it's all very specific. And But in terms of pre-dive things, yeah, I think, yeah, I try to let go of them a little bit, does that make sense? When I was thinking about the similarities between cycling and diving, in road races a lot of time, you're on somebody's wheel, someone else's pushing the pace and you're at an unsustainable pace. You're like, I can't hold on. And different bike riders have different ways of coping with this because you don't know how long it's going to last. You're just trying to get more and more and more in the hope that it eventually slows down. And I know I had a team meeting at the start of the race. I'd mentioned to them that I have this team where I count to 10, and I count to 10, I go, okay, I'm going to quit in 10 seconds, just hold on for 10 and I go, okay, 10, nine, eight, seven, six, down to 10. And then I'll get there and I'll go, Stop it and pause. Another 10 seconds, another 10 seconds. And I'll do this, but I told them this on day one of an eight day race. And I chat to them at the end. And it's like, well, you know, for your first eight day race, how'd you get on these like, I spent eight days counting backwards from 10. I was like, oh my God, that's horrific. Like the resonates so much. I've been starting to hold so that time discipline is exactly what I do. I think I can always do another 10 seconds. So just kill them through. All right, come on, care. 10 more seconds, then you're gonna have coffee with your pals, it's sunny, right? You get to that one. Let's go for another 10. And that's how you kind of trick yourself into drawing at that time. And yeah, I guess it's the same in depth a little bit. So you're on your way up and it might've felt like a long dive and your legs are burning from lactic acid. And then you see your safety diver, your safety diver, well today my mept me at 15 meters. And I go, ah, it's 15 meters. I can always do 15. So it is, you kind of like break it down into little chunks. Just like a manager, I guess. Different athletes describe it as you hear a lot of cyclists talking about flow or just at one with the bike today. Is there an equivalent where you're just at peace with the breasts, at peace with the water? Yes. And that's what has, you know, I'm pretty much living in the community of freedivers. I play back and within the afternoon, and go with dinner with them later on, I've practiced with them. You know, we love freediving, that's all we talk about. And the reason why so many people have left their normal inverteous chromosome lives to come out here is because of that state, chasing that state. So typically, that would be found during freefall. And in freefall, you're negatively buoyant, so you don't have to do anything to just fall. If the mind is working over time, it tends to bring intention, you think, oh god, my dare yet is there another couple of meters or whatever, it's not comfortable. So I'll say yesterday's dive. Today, with my playful curiosity, I just thought to myself, okay, Claire, you want to have a nice dive, keep the belly soft, stays nice and relaxed. Ooh, this is lovely. Ooh, the water feels cold. It just feels incredible. And it's almost like that state. You know, you're falling asleep from public transport and you're kind of not off and then your head jerks awake. It's coming to that state. It's not fully asleep, not fully awake either. And then suddenly you're at the bottom. That is the most magical feeling ever. I've used this phrase before, but it's the closest thing I've ever experienced applying. I think I've spoken across the SOMIS and across the podcast to different sort of... It's difficult to put them all into even one basket with a label, but mental skills experts, I'm using that broadly to me and anything from sports, psychology to yoga or anything around mindfulness. And so many people chase this state of mindfulness, of zen, of quieting the mind. And it seems to me like this is the ultimate way to quieten the mind because it's so like Darwinian, it's connected you're back to almost the transient nature of life. You get this wrong. It's, you know, there's not many second chances down there. Well, that's exactly you know, I think I've tried meditation, my infamous yoga and without free diving and it just never really pulls me in.
The only time I really engage with those practices is when I use it for free diving. So free diving is always my dangling carrot. And the big thing about free diving is thoughts use oxygen, which I have learned the hard way. So whilst my body might be nice and relaxed and I might not have much tension if your brain is racing through thoughts or what ifs or Okay, what am I gonna do on the surface and all this kind of thing you're consuming oxygen and that can be the difference between staying conscious and not? So cycling is a sport that's it's had a checkers history with doping and a lot of the doping has centered around oxygen transportation. And it's something that I think when you look at how we gain a performance edge in cycling or diving, we're both after that same thing, efficiency of oxygen, improve an oxygen transportation. What sort of training and skills have you used to be able to improve your ability to utilize oxygen and improve those efficiencies? For me, a lot of it is still mental. Obviously, I work on, so I mentioned earlier on hypoxic threshold, so being able to hold your breath for longer. Dealing with CO2 is a big thing as well. And obviously, when we're doing a more strenuous discipline like bifins, the muscles can fuel themselves with oxygen, so the lactic acid buildup can be quite big. So there's a huge element of training around that. But for me, it is that thing we've just spoken about. Being efficient with your thoughts. And I don't know about you, but if someone says, just let your mind go blank. Nature of course of vacuum is sure enough, they'll be like, I have million one thoughts in my head. So it's trying to find that sweet spot between not having an empty mind, which my life thoughts in, and just keeping something low for your brain just as a bit of an anchor. I suppose that's, when meditation, they do that using mantras and things like that. For me, I think, or I sing songs on my head, just something just to keep the brain a little bit occupied. I think there's probably a lot of people listening to this and saying like, Anthony, you're really riffing on one here with the free dive and the door chitter, and you know, something that you're into. But there's so many takeaways. We can take cyclists or else, even people that are just watching this as a general interest in health and fitness because I've seen a great quote from you. I'm not sure where I read it, but it said, he said, it helps me live better on the land. I think we're just starting to get an awareness of how important breeding is to our overall health, wellness and happiness. Yeah. Well, here's the thing. Like I said, like everyone else, I'm not super doing things that are good for me, unless free diving is the dang, you know, there's something to go for, which is always free diving. But I think free diving has helped me be a little bit more accountable. And if I'm diving, free diving will get me into bed properly at the, you know, at the right time, or will lower my caffeine intake, will help me watch what I eat, will make me really conscious of the energy I spend and how I spend it before a session. So starting to transfer those skills into day to day life has a huge benefit. And I know for me in lockdown it kind of all went out the window. And again, you find yourself in, or I found myself in a state where I was really stressed, kind of had that humming level of anxiety around all the restrictions and not seeing family and friends, etc. And I had to fully kind of just sit down and go, okay, this is far from ideal. You are not sleeping, your diet is gone, you're not exercising. Let's go back to basics. And for me, the basics will always be let's check in with the breathing and go from there. And sure enough, then once that's in order a little bit more sleep improves and diet improves. So freediving has taught me so much about, I think, being accountable and being honest with yourself. I had Julie Beyoga on the summit and she was talking about breath work and one of the really quilting she said, as a baby we actually know how to breathe from the stomach all the way up. And as we journey through life we actually regress and we unlearn this habit and you see somebody, you know, if you even picture somebody that's sick or unhealthy and you want to dig really deep into the characteristics of that person, it's normally slouched with a very shallow breast and it really shows us the importance of breast for healthy living. Yeah and I talk about this in my course and that's exactly the example I use, you know, the great thing is we all know how to do it.
We started off life that way, breathing deeply into to our belly and like that as the muscles develop as we build tension in our chest, we shift to a shorter, shallower breath which just creates such a feedback loop with our nervous system, keeps us in that heightened state of anxiety or builds that level of stress, but actually breaking that pattern and switching from fight or flight into rest and digest, that slower mode, the power sympathetic nervous system, that's about long exhales, that's about belly breathing, that's about expanding. And exactly as he said, if I were to imagine right now, an idea of someone that's stressed or angry, there'll be a short, shallow breath, shoulders rising up to their ears. And isn't an amazing tool when you start to think about its application? Because in the abstract people are like, OK, Anthony and Claire, this is great for free diving or maybe cycling in a village on but I'm working nine to five and I'm coming home to a family, a stressed household. And I'm trying to cram my session in that evening. But with tools like this, you actually have the ability when you drive in and you're stressed after your long day of work and been stuck in traffic, you want to be the best version of you showing up back at your house. You're about to meet your kids. You're about to meet your life partner. But with Brett work, you have that ability to boom, change your state and you to come in the door, a different person than the guy who arrives stressed. Absolutely. I think there's a meditation I do and I'm going to paraphrase it horribly and I'm afraid but something like enjoy the simple luxury of breathing. It always sticks at me because obviously we're breathing all day every day but to actually take time to do it consciously, it's such a luxury and it makes such a difference. Unlike that, good bad mood and changing from one to the other can all be done with breath. It's a tool most of us thankfully have with us all the time. It's so underutilized but I think there is a shift in the awareness at the moment and like terrific practitioners and I think you were chatting to a few of them and Neil, Virko is doing great work and see J.B's Nestors book came out so... And that's really kind of popularised breath work and I know I've kind of pieces of mask and tape all over my bed so I'd lock her for a paper. I wish that you'd done the same. Well, my dirty secret is I'm a mouth breather because free diving. So we all beat our mouths because we wear nose clips and unforceiving as well. You breathe predominantly through your mouth so I kind of have to keep that on the quicks. Claire, if someone else wants to come along and they want to learn from the credible journey you're on, they want to dip their toe into this world. you have courses or information resource you can point to? Yeah, so kind of you can find me on Instagram so as klerwolshlife and your experience brilliant. Oh thank you. I've had a few messages saying I'm gonna follow you until you get back to the cold and sunny pictures at the moment. And so I care about life and my I do have a website it's under construction a little bit at the moment but it's at klerwolshlife.com and all my email addresses and things are on both of those. Claire, that's brilliant. I can't wait to start doing physical in-person courses after COVID because I'll be the first name on the list. You're perfect. Thank you so much. Thanks for chatting Claire. Cheers. Hey everybody, it's Anthony again. Really quick, I want to invite you to join arguably the best thing I've ever put out inside the roadman community. It's a challenge. It's a challenge called a 14 day kickstart challenge. So regardless of where your fitness is at right now, this is going to be the catalyst for making you faster and making you leaner. I've created this challenge to take the guesswork out of everything. It's 14 days of training plans regardless of what your level is. There's the master's beginner advanced, there's meal plans shopping list and even a video course holding your hand and talking you true at all. So what I recommend you do right now is just stop everything, press pause on this audio and go to roadmancycling.com forward slash 14 day or check out the link in the bio that roadmancycling.com slash 14 day
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